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A lot of the smartest people in Bitcoin all respect Monero but keep low key about it.

IMO, Monero took the cypherpunk ideals and ethos and continued what Satoshi coalesced and started.

Do with this opinion what you will. But I didn't arrive at it easily or hastily, no matter how inconvenient it seems.

I appreciate monero’s approach to privacy but I’m all in on bitcoin because I believe bitcoin is the world’s best chance to “fix the money”.

IMHO Bitcoin’s lack of privacy on the base chain may actually be a feature not a bug. It makes it easier to audit than monero, thereby increasing the level of trust.

To gain global adoption, bitcoin needs to be the most decentralized and trustworthy chain. Only the most decentralized has a chance of surviving. Only the most trustworthy has the chance of gaining global adoption.

All other features can be built on higher layers.

For example, I wonder how privacy would compare between using monero, and sending bitcoin round-trip through Liquid + Lightning, or using payjoin, coinjoin, etc.

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Discussion

nobody 2y ago

I agree mostly. Well articulated. ⚡️👌

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Privacy on Bitcoin is slower, less convenient, and more expensive in tx fees and blockchain bloat than using Monero. It is also inferior privacy. Even if built on higher layers, there is always a core trade-off like loss of self custody or trustlessness for example, and it wont make Bitcoin as a whole fungible (or as fungible depending on your view).

https://github.com/sethforprivacy/sethforprivacy.com/blob/master/content/posts/comparing-private-spends.md

Bitcoin mining is arguably more centralized because there are only a couple ASIC manufacturers and vulnerable because of massive targeteable mining farms. You can mine Monero on almost any general purpose consumer CPU. So it is also more inconspicuous.

Node count for both is roughly in the same ballpark

https://bitnodes.io/

https://monero.fail/map

techfeudalist 2y ago

Yes, I agree that bitcoin’s privacy is inferior to Monero’s.

My sole objective is to throw my efforts and capital behind the chain best able to rip money out of the control of states. To me, that is the only thing that matters and everything else is a potential distraction.

Our need for privacy right now is high because nations are strong, because they control money. If they didn’t control money, governments will be smaller and we would live more freely. IMHO, people won’t be free, even if they use monero, if states still control money like they do today.

You can see that bitcoin is already working its way into the financial system, like a virus. Setting up to be the global reserve asset. Yes, many people will be trapped because of their inability to use the higher layer privacy capabilities, but my highest priority is the removal of state control over money, not privacy for everyone.

I believe that ASICs increase the barrier to attack the network. Yes, the US could grab all of the ASICs in its jurisdiction, but it could also grab all the CPUs in the cloud providers. I would bet the US’ share of worldwide CPUs is greater than share of ASICs.

m4dire0701 2y ago

"It makes it easier to audit than monero, thereby increasing the level of trust. "

By audit btc you mean government tracking all our transactions on blockchain? 😂😂

That's not how privacy should works

techfeudalist 2y ago

By trust, I mean prove the existence of only 21 million.

Privacy is coming to the base chain though systems like serverless payjoin

https://payjoin.org/

Higher levels of privacy are already available through level 2s. For example, Liquid uses confidential transactions and is slowly growing in popularity. Lightning offers good sender privacy. Privacy is improving (albeit never as quickly as I would like).

I am very pro freedom and privacy. I personally prefer bitcoin’s model of a very high trust base chain with increasing levels of privacy through secondary systems.

The most important objective is to rip the creation and control of money out of the hands of the state. This control is the root of most evils. Which protocol is best suited to do that?

m4dire0701 2y ago

You need to put a lot of effort to achieve the same level of xmr privacy, which has the maximum level of privacy by default

WoodenQ 2y ago

Value comes with effort

techfeudalist 2y ago

You’re right that privacy is better in monero by default and you’re also correct that people are lazy and will not avail themselves of the additional tools in bitcoin to safeguard their privacy.

I support bitcoin though because the world will be a better place when nations can no longer fund wars and massive governments with printed money.

To become the global money, the base chain needs high trust. Everyone needs to trust it. Really trust it.

I remind myself that most people will just buy the bitcoin ETF. They will give up their independence and privacy for convenience. For those of us that care about privacy, options are available.

WoodenQ 2y ago

Ye shared purdy words of much meaning

Nice!