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The entire point of Bitcoin was removing trusted third parties. The only place permissionless transactions are possible at all are black markets where Monero is taking over. It's arguably the only relevant crypto for Bitcoins value prop.

Unless you're a fanatic there is almost no reason to use Bitcoin for white market transactions over fiat money if you're following all the states rules in the first place. There is more friction, much smaller network, additionally taxed, and carries more regulatory uncertainty.

JackTheMimic 1y ago

By definition black markets are not permissioned. If I told you "Hey here's a thing just like bitcoin but private" what's your first question?

-How is it just like Bitcoin but private? Does it have a supply cap? Does it have a similar network size? Market capitalization? Auditability?

Since the answer to all of those questions is No, then you would say, That was a lie right?

Monero's marketing is based on a lie. It is just a token that has some neat tricks to obscure sender, recipient, and amount. It does not have all of the properties necessary to be a good money technology. Namely scarcity. Even with scarcity, the network (and anonymity set) is too small for more market capitalization.

So, the overall point is Black markets are good because of the freedom and anonymity. The answer is not to then use the currency popular to the biggest black market (which by the way would be Ramen noodle packets because prisons have the largest black markets and that's what they use). The answer is to make markets more free and anonymous by making authority obsolete in a market, which is what bitcoin does. Anonymity comes when people use it as it is an opt in feature since the beginning of trade. (Knowing you trade partner and all that)

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Discussion

Jordan S 1y ago

Monero is not like Bitcoin because it has privacy, can scale, isn’t centralized through KYC ASIC Mining pools in China, makes changes to the protocol when issues are found, is fungible, is digital cash, is more scarce than Bitcoin for the next 16 years, has better Memes, & an Anime girl mascot, is used by most of the Darkweb now.

JackTheMimic 1y ago

Damn, ya got me. The Anime girls are really moving in on the petroleum markets. I should definitely have thought of that.

Jordan S 1y ago

I mean look at this little cutie, I don't know how it doesn't convince you to buy her coin.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

When did I say anything about Monero being similar to all aspects of Bitcoin? I'm talking about the core value prop

Moneros "neat tricks" are the entire north star of digital cash the cypherpunks preceding and leading to Bitcoin were trying to achieve

Darknet markets are a subset of black markets and the original use case for Bitcoin that launched it from obscurity into what it is now. You don't need digital transactions if you're trading ramen packets in prison which is ridiculous to consider that the largest black market. When you're using Bitcoin for white markets transactions, similar to the vast majority of it's economic activity currently trading on CEX servers, it's just a worse version of fiat. You're following arbitrary rules of the authorities. Even NGU can be destroyed because they can just tax more to offset gains on the white markets. The advantages of Bitcoin are only fully realized and constant on black markets.

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JackTheMimic 1y ago

Prison black markets ARE literally the worlds largest black markets. I don't see how that is ridiculous. My point was that monetary tool (ramen) is popular in the largest black market though it would be insane for people outside that ecosystem to use it as money. White markets in the US are mainly subject to those stipulations but as BTC is a global asset, I don't see that as a lasting problem. Geographic arbitrage gets rid of those regulations very easily. As far as black markets are concerned, I can and have bought things with bitcoin, anonymously and psudononymously, using both mixed coins, payjoins, and Lightning. Where is the hurdle?

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

No they aren't lol. I don't think they even fall in the top ten if we're talking about black markets worldwide. You don't even need to know anything about black markets to know that the prison population is a microscopic fraction of global pop. I never claimed Monero is money. I dont think either Bitcoin or Monero qualify as money yet so I don't see how they differ in that. None are the most saleable good. They're just mediums of exchange and speculative assets at the moment.

I don't doubt you have. The hurdle is needing to mix coins to begin with (expensive in time, fees, and tedium all for shittier privacy VS Monero) or running your own always online LN node to gain full privacy. Even among hardcore Bitcoiners coinjoining and running your own LN node is rare. If Bitcoin maxis barely do it, why would anyone else? DNM merchants/customers just want their transactions privacy to be built-in no fuss and work which is why Monero is taking over DNMs. No DNMs accept LN.

JackTheMimic 1y ago

Cool dude, I'm not interested in "debating" facts with you, have a good one.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Ok have a good day man