Hello again, Brother,
I want to begin by thanking you for the obvious time and effort you've taken to engage with me and discuss these things; me, an "internet nobody" who you've never met in person. I owe you a debt of gratitude, and wish you to know that your interaction has had a salutary effect on my thinking. Whether consciously or inadvertently, your remarks have pointed out nuances in my understanding of scripture that up until now I've not expressed clearly enough. You've made me think. For this I am truly grateful, and for this I bless you!🙏🏻❤️🔥😁😇👍
Also as preamble, please never interpret delays in and/or brevity of my responses as a lack of appreciation for your kind willingness to discuss these matters.🙏🏻😀 And now, I will try to at least hit the "high points" of your very gracious response.
Are you familiar with Venn Diagrams? "Spheres" (speaking Kuyperian), or in a Venn Diagram, circles that have some degree of overlap... Our conversation has given me greater clarity. I can see that my dichotomy (contrasting "civil government v "ecclesiastic government" spheres <-> with <-> "kingdom of satan" v "Kingdom of Jesus/God/The Heavens") does not have an exact "Venn" overlap with one another. And so, to restate my thesis, now more clearly (thanks at least in part to your feedback), please hear this...:
In the Kuyperian sphere sovereignty model, and within the sphere Kuyper calls "civil government," virtually all the EXISTING examples of "civil government" and above all among them those we think of as "nation-states" in truth fall into the category of my Venn Diagram model, or sphere, as the "kingdom of satan."
This is not to say that there is *zero good* embedded in these organizations, or intermingled with them; only that they are headed and led by wicked principalities and powers that answer to the devil himself. As a consequence (IMNSHO - In My Not So Humble Opinion), they are beyond redemption and what I see biblically is that King Jesus is in the process of crushing and destroying them.
Consequently, I believe that--whether clearly cognizant of this or not--even the best intentioned members in this "mixed bag," as you put it, are serving and supporting this inherently evil enterprise; and I see a clear call in scripture for Jesus' followers to "come out" of these evil and corrupt organizations.
As to the etymology and significance of the term .. , I perceive that we are simply talking at cross-purposes here; I recognize and completely acknowledge your discussion of ἐκκλησία as having a primary meaning of "gathering" or "assembly." I've written extensively about this...
here:
https://peakd.com/life/@creatr/the-curmudgeon-s-bible-the-word-church
and here:
https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/curmudgeon-s-bible-it-s-time-to-retire-the-word-church
Excerpt:
"While reading the bible, whenever you encounter the word "church," mentally substitute of one of the following: To the words assembly, congregation, gathering, group and convocation, please consider adding forum, or even council or meeting or steering committee as English words that might better convey the original meaning."
So, by and large, I think we are in violent agreement; and I'll try to clarify a nuanced difference in our views below:
I will repeat my assertion that ἐκκλησία is a "governing body," with the refinement that what I see biblically is that it is a SELF-GOVERNING body, in which all the members are part of a 100% VOLUNTARY association of individual members of Jesus' Kingdom. And YES, I ABSOLUTELY grant you that (just as in the case of nation-states) on a case-by-case basis, there are tares among the wheat--even as in the state, there is wheat among the tares. I make this case, in part, in the first article cited above, as well as in many articles in my Kingdom series.
Linguistically, virtually EVERY English translation of the first chapter of Ephesians obscures this truth by simplistically describing Jesus as "head of all things to the church," when the Greek structure is clearly a "dative of means" or "instrumental dative" indicating that Jesus rules all things by means of the church.
Your feedback has helped me to articulate this more clearly as "Jesus is TAKING OVER the rule of all things by means of the church, which is his body."
Jesus is pulling his people, one by one, OUT OF the darkness of this world and AWAY FROM involvement in nation-states, and INTO his Kingdom of Light. And that Kingdom is comprised of his ἐκκλησία, his "called-out" people, and is self-governing.
Thus, the subjects of governance of the entire world are, little by little, being transferred from darkness to light. This is why I rail against how many of my brethren seem unwilling to be "all-in" when it comes to the Kingdom, and "all-out" when it comes to what Revelation describes as "the beast."
>"Is the sword something God has given to ecclesiastical leaders? Should the pastor and elders be performing capital punishment? Either we must conclude this is the case, or we must conclude that it is some other form of authority Paul is referring to, and all evidence points to civil authority."
Here, I believe, you've created a false dilemma.
The term "sword" is not 100% used in a physical sense in scripture, so YES, the sword of the Word is clearly in the hands of ecclesiastical leaders. And I will ask, should ANYONE other than God himself be performing capital punishment? A can of worms for another entirely separate discussion... Your either-or here is a false dilemma, because there are other, more nuanced options which I will mention merely by reference to and recommendation of the following series of podcasts:
https://www.thebadroman.com/episodes
(If so inclined, please listen to episodes 117-120)...
In that series, you will find more competent expositions of some of the significant scriptures you've repeatedly cited (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2) that put them in a wider, and I believe far more accurate biblical and historical context than you (along with virtually all reformed theologians) have, due to being mired in centuries of nearly insurmountable tradition...
The last entry in that series perhaps makes it clearer than I've been able to why I strongly disagree with your final paragraph; summarizing, when we vote or run for office or in any way participate with and support what I call "The Powers That Shouldn't Be," we are doing what Revelation portrays as committing adultery with the Whore of Babylon, being unfaithful to our Lord.
Finally, I want to reiterate my sincere appreciation for your gracious engagement with me here on nostr; thank you so much. God bless and keep you and your family as you navigate this life.🙏🏻😀😇💖