Hello again, Brother,

I appreciate your interaction and comments.🙏🏻😁

>"The Apostle Paul clearly taught in Romans 13 that God has ordained the existence of civil authorities of some form..."

Yes, but I can see that you are viewing things through a thick filter of reformed theological tradition. I urge you to set aside those glasses, at least for a minute, and consider the biblical evidence from a fresh perspective.

The core problem here is an egregious category error... And, at the risk of trying to be humorous, I'll mention that there are two kinds of people in the world; those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and everyone else...😜🤣

The reformers certainly faced and dealt with many serious errors of the Roman Catholic church (e.g. paid indulgences), however they were not without severe faults of their own. Perhaps the great-grandaddy of reformation flaws--an error that plagues us to this day--is that the reformers divided the world into "spheres of authority," and in the process miscategorized and erroneously identified two of those spheres. This error has in more modern times been formalized by a politician, Abraham Kuyper, as "Sphere Sovereignty:"

https://www.monergism.com/sphere-sovereignty-ebook

The specific error of Sphere Sovereignty is this: dividing the world into two spheres (so far, so good), but then misidentifying the spheres as "church" v "civil government."

The authentic Biblical categories, clearly seen from Genesis to Revelation, are different. The world is in truth divided into "The Kingdom of Jesus/God/The Heavens" and "the kingdom of satan." A corollary observation is that ALL the nation-states of the world fall into the latter category, including the USA.

>"Paul was not speaking of some idealized government when he said this, either. He was speaking of the corrupt Roman empire."

Are you certain about that? Paul makes assertions in Romans 13 that CANNOT POSSIBLY be describing the Roman empire (or the USA):

https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/this-is-not-that-a-comment-on-romans-13

The ecclesia (poorly translated "church;" better "assembly") was the local body that governed cities in Paul's day, and I believe he WAS speaking of God's ideal form of government. Here's an article that compares and contrasts satanic state governments and God's ideal:

https://peakd.com/kingdom/@creatr/the-state-or-god-s-kingdom-a-comparison-chart

>"Jesus rules over his church, throughout the world, and he rules over all else, including civil authorities, via his sovereign providence. Ruling over all things through his church is something we look forward to when he returns and we can finally beat our swords into plowshares. That day is not today."

We are at least partially in agreement here; Jesus is presently *taking over* the rule of the entire world, one lost sheep at a time. He has "bound the strong man" and is plundering his household. He is in the process of DESTROYING all the nation-states, calling his people out of them (exodus) and into his ecclesia, where all rule is voluntary. That day IS today, though it won't be completed until the very end.

https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/lunch-with-a-friend-the-outcome

Thank you for your feedback; it always helps my thinking to hear a brother's alternate perspective.🙏🏻😆

I would definitely be a proponent of sphere sovereignty, so you have me pegged there, but only because I believe it is biblical. I also don’t think Kuyper would have denied that the world can be divided between the Kingdom of God/heaven, and the kingdom of Satan/darkness. I think he would have readily embraced those categories and recognized that there are professing members of the church, who are actually part of the kingdom of darkness, and that the civil government is a mixed bag of both members of the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. It is not possible to say that anyone who is part of the temporal sphere of the civil government is surely a member of the kingdom of darkness any more than it is possible to say that anyone who is part of the visible church is surely a member of the Kingdom of God.

Now, you seem to be assuming a very different definition of ἐκκλησία than Scripture itself, and then stating that Romans 13 is speaking of the leaders of this voluntary assembly that supposedly referred to a “local body that governed cities in Paul’s day.” However, let us take a look at how Scripture actually uses the term ἐκκλησία.

We could look at how the word was used outside of Scripture, and there you might have a point, since it did refer to the governing bodies of Roman cities. However, we are interested in what Scripture means when it uses that term, and Paul is almost certainly using ἐκκλησία in the same sense as the Septuagint, which was commonly in use at the time of Christ and the writing of the New Testament. Many of the places where the New Testament quotes the Old are direct quotations from the Septuagint.

There are 96 times that the Septuagint uses the term ἐκκλησία. This will already be effectively a long-form note, so we will only look at a sampling to get a good handle on how it is being used.

We see it used in Deuteronomy 4:10, where Moses relates how God had instructed him to “Gather the people to me [at Horeb], that I may let them hear my words, so that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live on the earth, and they may teach their children so.” The word translated to English here as “gather” is ἐκκλησία. To whom is it referring? The leadership of a city or even of the Israelites? No. To the people of God gathered at a particular place; namely Horeb.

Another significant usage we see in Deuteronomy is as part of a phrase, “day of the ἐκκλησία,” which is repeated in Deuteronomy 9:10, 10:4, and 18:16, all of which are referring to when the people of God gathered at Horeb and received the moral law written on tablets of stone.

We also see ἐκκλησία used at the dedication of the temple by Solomon in 1 Kings 8:14, where it says the king “turned around and blessed all the ἐκκλησία of Israel, while all the ἐκκλησία of Israel stood.” Again, we don’t see this term referring to the voluntary leadership of a city, but to the people of God gathered together.

We see the term used by the psalmist in Psalm 22:22, where he says, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the ἐκκλησία I will praise you.” Here ἐκκλησία is referring, as a parallelism, to the psalmist’s brothers, those “who fear the Lord,” who are “the offspring of Jacob,” the “offspring of Israel” (verse23). So again, not referring to the leadership of a city.

When looking at other uses of ἐκκλησία in the Old Testament, it becomes clear that it can refer to any gathering of people together, for good or ill, whether they be people in any kind of authority or not.

With this background in mind, let’s look at the usage of ἐκκλησία in the New Testament and see if any of them support this idea that the voluntary leadership of a city is what is in mind.

We see Jesus himself use the term in Matthew 16:18, when Peter confesses “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus responds saying, “...and I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my ἐκκλησία, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Now, is Jesus speaking merely of a group of leaders, or is he speaking of his people as a whole here? Given how his disciples would have understood the usage of the term ἐκκλησία in the Old Testament, I would wager it is the latter.

We see ἐκκλησία again in Acts 2:47, speaking of the results of Peter’s sermon at Pentecost. Remember, about 3,000 souls were saved as a result of that sermon, and then we see that they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching, fellowship, breaking bread, and prayer (verse 42), and other evidences of vibrant faith and love of the brethren (verses 43-47a). The chapter wraps up saying, “And the Lord added to the ἐκκλησία daily such as should be saved.” Who is ἐκκλησία referring to, here? To the 3,000 who came to faith through Peter’s preaching. It is to their number that God was adding daily those who were saved afterward.

In Acts 8:1, it speaks of “great persecution against the ἐκκλησία which was at Jerusalem,” which resulted many early believers scattering “throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria.” This is most certainly not talking about the leadership of the city of Jerusalem, but rather of the persecution against all of the Christians gathered in Jerusalem.

Again, in Acts 16:5, we see that after Paul and Timothy delivered the decision of the council at Jerusalem (chapter 15) to those in Derbe and Lystra and other cities, “...the ἐκκλησίαι were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.” This is speaking of the Christians gathered in those cities, not the voluntary leadership of those cities, who were often at odds with Paul and his preaching.

How about we get out of Acts and look at how Paul himself used the term ἐκκλησία?

Paul addressed his first letter to the Corinthians saying, “To the ἐκκλησία of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ…” Was Paul writing to the leadership of this city? No. He specifies that he is writing to all believers in that city, and who are united through their faith to all believers in “every place.”

A particularly interesting usage is in 1 Corinthians 11:18, where Paul says, “In the first place, when you come together as a ἐκκλησία, I hear that there are divisions among you.” Then he goes on to describe how they were dividing by socio-economic class when taking the Lord’s Supper, and treating it as a regular meal, such that some went hungry while others got drunk. This is clearly speaking of coming together for worship when Paul says “when you come together as a ἐκκλησία.”

In Galatians 1:13, Paul confesses that he “persecuted the ἐκκλησία of God.” In Ephesians 5 we see Paul speak of the parallel between husbands and wives and Christ and his ἐκκλησία. In Colossians 4, he encourages the Colossians have the epistle read also in the ἐκκλησία of the Laodiceans. In 1 Thessalonians 2:14 he tells them that they have become “imatators of the ἐκκλησίαι of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea” by way of their persecution from their own countrymen. In 1 Timothy 3 Paul asks, “if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s ἐκκλησία?”

In none of these passages is there any indication that Paul is referring to any kind of voluntary leadership of a city, or even just to the leadership of the Christians in a particular place. It always refers to a group of believers who gather together for worship.

Now, let’s see if this definition fits with applying Romans 13 to this group, or even the leaders of this group.

First, Paul refers to those to whom the reader is to submit as “governing authorities” or “higher powers.” The words here are not used anywhere to speak of ecclesiastical leaders. Indeed, one of the only other places we see the word governing/higher (ὑπερέχω) is expressly referring to civil authority, rather than ecclesiastical. 1 Peter 2:13 and 14 says, “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.” This sounds very similar to what Paul is saying in Romans 13, does it not?

The next word Paul uses to refer to those he has in mind is found in verse 3, where he says, “For rulers (ἄρχοντες) are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.” This term is never used to refer to ecclesiastical leadership, either, but is most commonly translated as ruler, prince, or magistrate.

By contrast, the New Testament uses a couple of terms to refer to ecclesiastical leadership: elder (πρεσβύτερος) and overseer (ἐπίσκοπος). Neither of these terms is anywhere to be found in Romans 13.

Finally, Paul speaks of these higher powers and rulers as “not bearing the sword in vain.” It is assumed by the Apostle that the rulers he speaks of have the authority to use violent force as they carry out their duty. Is the sword something God has given to ecclesiastical leaders? Should the pastor and elders be performing capital punishment? Either we must conclude this is the case, or we must conclude that it is some other form of authority Paul is referring to, and all evidence points to civil authority.

Now, your article rightly points out that civil governments often fail to uphold the purpose for which God ordained them. You have erred in believing this is proof Paul must not be talking about civil authorities, though. It is simply a matter that we only have a duty to obey them in so far as they do uphold this purpose, and we should do what we can to influence them toward that goal, including voting, or even running for office ourselves.

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Discussion

there is a good documentary that examines this called "The Essential Church" which goes through many of the biblical instructions and other related historical cases where the state has gone against the church

i think that 1 Samuel 8 really should end the debate, it's the oldest instruction on the subject and it basically declares that a government (king) is not voluntary and leads to slavery

at best a state is minimally harmful, minimally... not zero... it is the case where by chance the disbelievers choose not to be purely evil but it always leaves a crack open for the Devil to creep in

the debate about the thing is the whole minarchy/constitutionalist argument against decentralised, polycentric law and pure free association

the first pillar of the state is involuntary membership not born of birth and even those bound to family by birth (as per the commandment) are still not bound to be dutiful to a tyrannical family

so, in no case does the authority of God come second to any man made authority, ever

i think the discussions of this in the new testament more are about advising meekness and evasion rather than obedience to the government

i mean, just think about the story of the "stealing of the blessings" of Isaac, Jacob and Esau... the subtext of that, and i've read it in two other apocryphal versions (jasher and jubilees) is that Isaac was behaving in an unholy way towards his "younger" son Jacob, and Rebecca acted to bring justice... and not only that, in the Jasher (longest most detailed text containing the stories of Genesis i am familiar with) Jacob does not clad himself in goat skin to appear hairy like his brother

Isaac was clearly demented, if you ask me

You've lost me here. I am not interested in anything from apocryphal books. I am only interested in what Scripture teaches on the matter, as that is the Word of God we are called to pattern our lives and beliefs after.

yeah, trust those roman bureaucrats faking being religious with their failing empire and their supposed miraculous vision of constantine

they left out Enoch, and nearly removed it from history until it turned up in the Ethiopian Orthodox canon, it has been part of the jewish canon since at least 2500BC and then more versions were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls

half of what jesus is famous for saying comes directly from Enoch and clearly in Jesus' time everyone knew of it

the catholics don't even literally say that the apocrypha are wrong, they just made up this "word of god" doctrine that has muddied the waters for the last 1600 years

the word "apocrypha" doesn't mean "made up" it means "hidden" apocrypha is the antonym of apocalypse

just like the word "catolika" means "universal"

I'll have to check that documentary out. I have no doubt that governments often have been and are antagonistic against the church.

1 Samuel 8 cannot be thought of as ending the debate. It is only regarding the dangers of monarchy, not the dangers of civil government at all. In the end, God turned even the monarchy into an expression of his covenant promises, establishing David's throne as an everlasting kingdom, which would ultimately be fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

"At best, a state is minimally harmful, minimally... not zero..."

100% agree! However, the same can be said for EVERY kind of institution where a fallen human being is involved, whether that be the church, the family, the government, or free enterprise. The Devil has ample room to creep in to all of these institutions so long as they are made up of men. This is no argument that the institutions should not exist. Only that they should have checks on any one of them having too much power.

Voluntarism is NOT the standard of morality. It can certainly be a factor, but it is not the end-all/be-all of what is right and wrong. How do we know this? Because in the end, every knee will be made to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; even those who hate him. God has the right to impose his will upon us, and Scripture tells us that he has ordained the existence of civil government for the restraint of evil.

So... What is it that then restrains the evil of civil governments? I believe it is sound money. Hence, not long after governments broke their last tenuous ties to sound money via the gold standard, God gave us Bitcoin.

"so, in no case does the authority of God come second to any man made authority, ever"

Again, 100% agree! Paul's framing in Romans 13 clearly puts the civil magistrate under God's authority as his "servant" (verse 4). That means, whenever the governing authorities go against God's authority, we are under zero obligation to obey. We must obey the higher authority and oppose them.

All laws are an expression of morality. The question is whether they are an expression of God's morality or someone else's. The only true morality is God's, and therefore civil laws ought to be based on God's moral law. Insofar as civil laws conform to God's moral law, (such as laws against murder, theft, etc) we ought to obey them. Yes, obey, not meek evasion. But insofar as they do not reflect God's moral law, we are under no such obligation. To that extent, the state is no longer acting as God's servant, and we are therefore compelled to submit to the greater authority rather than the lesser.

Hello again, Brother,

I want to begin by thanking you for the obvious time and effort you've taken to engage with me and discuss these things; me, an "internet nobody" who you've never met in person. I owe you a debt of gratitude, and wish you to know that your interaction has had a salutary effect on my thinking. Whether consciously or inadvertently, your remarks have pointed out nuances in my understanding of scripture that up until now I've not expressed clearly enough. You've made me think. For this I am truly grateful, and for this I bless you!🙏🏻❤️‍🔥😁😇👍

Also as preamble, please never interpret delays in and/or brevity of my responses as a lack of appreciation for your kind willingness to discuss these matters.🙏🏻😀 And now, I will try to at least hit the "high points" of your very gracious response.

Are you familiar with Venn Diagrams? "Spheres" (speaking Kuyperian), or in a Venn Diagram, circles that have some degree of overlap... Our conversation has given me greater clarity. I can see that my dichotomy (contrasting "civil government v "ecclesiastic government" spheres <-> with <-> "kingdom of satan" v "Kingdom of Jesus/God/The Heavens") does not have an exact "Venn" overlap with one another. And so, to restate my thesis, now more clearly (thanks at least in part to your feedback), please hear this...:

In the Kuyperian sphere sovereignty model, and within the sphere Kuyper calls "civil government," virtually all the EXISTING examples of "civil government" and above all among them those we think of as "nation-states" in truth fall into the category of my Venn Diagram model, or sphere, as the "kingdom of satan."

This is not to say that there is *zero good* embedded in these organizations, or intermingled with them; only that they are headed and led by wicked principalities and powers that answer to the devil himself. As a consequence (IMNSHO - In My Not So Humble Opinion), they are beyond redemption and what I see biblically is that King Jesus is in the process of crushing and destroying them.

Consequently, I believe that--whether clearly cognizant of this or not--even the best intentioned members in this "mixed bag," as you put it, are serving and supporting this inherently evil enterprise; and I see a clear call in scripture for Jesus' followers to "come out" of these evil and corrupt organizations.

As to the etymology and significance of the term .. , I perceive that we are simply talking at cross-purposes here; I recognize and completely acknowledge your discussion of ἐκκλησία as having a primary meaning of "gathering" or "assembly." I've written extensively about this...

here:

https://peakd.com/life/@creatr/the-curmudgeon-s-bible-the-word-church

and here:

https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/curmudgeon-s-bible-it-s-time-to-retire-the-word-church

Excerpt:

"While reading the bible, whenever you encounter the word "church," mentally substitute of one of the following: To the words assembly, congregation, gathering, group and convocation, please consider adding forum, or even council or meeting or steering committee as English words that might better convey the original meaning."

So, by and large, I think we are in violent agreement; and I'll try to clarify a nuanced difference in our views below:

I will repeat my assertion that ἐκκλησία is a "governing body," with the refinement that what I see biblically is that it is a SELF-GOVERNING body, in which all the members are part of a 100% VOLUNTARY association of individual members of Jesus' Kingdom. And YES, I ABSOLUTELY grant you that (just as in the case of nation-states) on a case-by-case basis, there are tares among the wheat--even as in the state, there is wheat among the tares. I make this case, in part, in the first article cited above, as well as in many articles in my Kingdom series.

Linguistically, virtually EVERY English translation of the first chapter of Ephesians obscures this truth by simplistically describing Jesus as "head of all things to the church," when the Greek structure is clearly a "dative of means" or "instrumental dative" indicating that Jesus rules all things by means of the church.

Your feedback has helped me to articulate this more clearly as "Jesus is TAKING OVER the rule of all things by means of the church, which is his body."

Jesus is pulling his people, one by one, OUT OF the darkness of this world and AWAY FROM involvement in nation-states, and INTO his Kingdom of Light. And that Kingdom is comprised of his ἐκκλησία, his "called-out" people, and is self-governing.

Thus, the subjects of governance of the entire world are, little by little, being transferred from darkness to light. This is why I rail against how many of my brethren seem unwilling to be "all-in" when it comes to the Kingdom, and "all-out" when it comes to what Revelation describes as "the beast."

>"Is the sword something God has given to ecclesiastical leaders? Should the pastor and elders be performing capital punishment? Either we must conclude this is the case, or we must conclude that it is some other form of authority Paul is referring to, and all evidence points to civil authority."

Here, I believe, you've created a false dilemma.

The term "sword" is not 100% used in a physical sense in scripture, so YES, the sword of the Word is clearly in the hands of ecclesiastical leaders. And I will ask, should ANYONE other than God himself be performing capital punishment? A can of worms for another entirely separate discussion... Your either-or here is a false dilemma, because there are other, more nuanced options which I will mention merely by reference to and recommendation of the following series of podcasts:

https://www.thebadroman.com/episodes

(If so inclined, please listen to episodes 117-120)...

In that series, you will find more competent expositions of some of the significant scriptures you've repeatedly cited (Romans 13, 1 Peter 2) that put them in a wider, and I believe far more accurate biblical and historical context than you (along with virtually all reformed theologians) have, due to being mired in centuries of nearly insurmountable tradition...

The last entry in that series perhaps makes it clearer than I've been able to why I strongly disagree with your final paragraph; summarizing, when we vote or run for office or in any way participate with and support what I call "The Powers That Shouldn't Be," we are doing what Revelation portrays as committing adultery with the Whore of Babylon, being unfaithful to our Lord.

Finally, I want to reiterate my sincere appreciation for your gracious engagement with me here on nostr; thank you so much. God bless and keep you and your family as you navigate this life.🙏🏻😀😇💖