Replying to Avatar Jeff Booth

I posted last week about how fast the number of users on Nostr was growing and had a bunch of clarifications to the number I pulled from Primal, essential saying the number was too high.

Been thinking about this problem/opportunity all week.

1) I understand that it is really hard to get accurate numbers in a protocol like this - similar to how lightning growth is difficult to accurately gauge. (But are we making the problem worse by fighting over the number - that we can’t know?)

2) We all know and take for granted that the other bird app wildly overstates their users because it leads to more users. We know this from the court docs on a) Elon transaction, b) Elon constant drumbeat on “how fast it’s growing” c) our own user experience - ie - engagement per # connections (followers) is much higher here d) All of the bots and scams needed the reply to posts on x.

And here’s the thing - it is going to get far worse on X. I still pop in on X to see what’s going on (even though I rarely post) and besides all of the bots and noise, now most of what you see is AI driven clickbait to “win” more followers, drowning out some of the great voices I used to find there. Searching for real content is becoming increasingly difficult.

3) I suspect many of the early users here are early adopters in other areas of their lives. They could see the risks of the other centralized services and/or they wanted to be on the leading edge of something far better.

That being said, a core driver for the majority is that they feel comfort in “what everyone else is doing” meaning that a) if they think Nostr is stagnant (because people here are more honest/critical with real #’s) while b) X is growing (because of “marketing” - I wanted to use a different name for it but stopped short) then c) they will stay for longer on X, because they won’t investigate what you already know…….this is a far better experience, that is getting better every day. (While the competitor(s) are getting worse)

Users and Developers are much more likely to move their valuable time and content here if they think there is a growing community of engagement (there is) versus a stagnant one.

What restaurant are you attracted to? the one with a line of people or the empty one?

Our natural biases are hard to break and for all of Elon’s faults, he sure knows how to use these triggers to drive people to do what he wants them to do.

I agree with this take.

Our current user count calculation is very permissive: we count all public keys that have user metadata set. This can be gamed (anyone can create bot key pairs and set metadata for them), so our nostr user numbers are overstated.

The alternative is to use a web of trust algorithm to identify real users based on follow connections. The downside of this technique is that we would be underestimating the number of real users because most new users won’t have any real followers initially.

Given that other networks generously include bots when stating their user numbers, our approach is probably a decent apples-to-apples comparison. In fact, as you point out, nostr seems to have higher engagement per number of followers.

Having said all that, I am not happy with the fact that our numbers don’t reflect real users. We will work on improving these techniques, but I definitely don’t want to err on the side of excluding real users from the count.

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half of my followers are bots.

same, more than half

not me, I swear 🤖

check nostr:npub1xdtducdnjerex88gkg2qk2atsdlqsyxqaag4h05jmcpyspqt30wscmntxy ‘s “trusted user” techniques for additional thinking on the topic

Yes, that's the web of trust approach I mentioned above. We use it in some parts of Primal (e. g. to eliminate bots from trending feeds). Using it for user counts would understate the real user numbers tho.