I’ll leave this for the experts:
I have stacked kyc and non kyc sats
Consolidated the UTXOs with each other, so I doxxed myself in a way
Now what should be my next steps?
Should I mix them? Never done this before
Should I consolidate UTXOs in a better size?
What size would you recommend if the stack is for the next generation?
#asknostr
If you mixed non-kyc with kyc already you can either swallow the privacy hit or coinjoin it up, but yes they be doxxid
If these are inheritance utxo’s i’d personally say ~5M per inheritant(?🤣) in terms of size
Thanks appreciate it! I’m still not quite sure what to do with the privacy
Hear a lot about non kyc over kyc but I really have no clue if I should mix them.. it’s just a dilemma for me
If they are already mixed: consolidate and join
If not. Good. Keep em separate. Your future you hunted by IRS will thank you :)
Just a thought but if I get hunted for having kyc sats. Why can’t I just say “lost my keys”
Depends on the hunter and the amount I guess. The hunter has to believe what you claim. Pretty hard and on the other pretty easy to lose keys.
I think for passing on to kids/grandkids purposes it might be better that it’s kyc anyway. But idk, don’t take my word on that pls
Thanks for your opinion bro. It’s a difficult topic imo
Please explain, you've broken my brain with this comment. No judgment, seriously curious as to a perceived downside of nonKYC. What am i missing?
Idk i’ve heard mentions of for instance buying a house, they might not be able to use non-kyc sats for that
Yup I’ve heard the same from people.
That’s why I’m still a bit skeptical about only non kyc
Ideally it will be a world where value (sats) speaks for itself and it’s not a nanny surveillance state. But it’s hard to bet the farm on that in any foreseeable future imo
Also if you want to exchange some sats back into fiat some exchanges would not except sats that are associated to coinjoins
Difficult topic and I also keep thinking about it.
We don't know the future.
What if you live in a country where the government decided that it is illegal to sell non KYC sats?
Of course you would still be able to sell them P2P using robosats or alike, but at a discount and with risk.
Or you wound have to move to a different country.
So it may be good to have some KYC stack, too. Pay the capital gains tax on it when you sell, so they cannot go after you.
That's my thinking, for whatever it is worth.
So, for new buys, buy some on robosats, and some using some soft KYC exchange.
And send them to two different wallets.
It can be on the same hardware wallet you already have, but with different BIP39 passphrases, like the 25th word.
So you will have a hidden wallet number 2 and 3, with different passphrases, where you keep, separately, your newly bought sats.
Read about BIP39.
I am not sure about coinjoin. It makes it visible, coins may be consideted tainted.
You could also send them to Liquid, ie swap to LBTC using sideswap io, then send to lightning using Boltz exchange, then back. It should hide the trail, too, giving you forward looking privacy. Or ability to claim that after you sent coins to liquid you lost the key.
Swap them out using a new phone or desktop and via vpn such as proton kr mullavad or ivpn or tor.
Just in case. Good luck.
Thank you sir!! Really appreciate it
There is no discount to selling your KYC bitcoin peer to peer. In fact, p2p bitcoin typically has a premium that will only grow as the feds tighten their grip.
KYC only applies to YOU, who got bitcoin from an entity that is complying with those murderous thieves.
You could buy hashrate, mine with a pool and earn new bitcoin, all without kyc. There's at least 3 marketplaces for this.
I recently researched the UTXO size question. UTXOs of 1 million sats and above are recommended.
Not sure what to do about the other situation. Most important now is labeling every UTXO. So maybe you can save those that are still pure KYC /non-KYC. Then i would recommend creating different wallets for each type.
Different wallets or different addresses in the same wallet?
Thanks for the help bro, really appreciate it
Different wallets. Otherwise it’s hoghly likely to mess things up (again). Different wallets by using different passphrases could be an easy solution.
That’s a good method! Thanks bro! So nice to chat with you again
I also enjoy beeing back again ☺️ 🫂💜
Do you use sparrow wallet? It is a very good wallet for utxo management.
I’ve seen a lot of videos of it. But never used. I only use IOS apps until now. Never a desktop app
I see. Any particular reason you want to avoid desktop? Securitywise it’s at least on the same level, especially if you youse the jade in air gapped mode
Just convenience haha almost never use desktops
I see. It can be a psychological advantage to treat cold cold storage a little different with a bit more hoops and hassles and have it not handy all the time. Like as it is less convenient to check a safety deposit box. It also sets a different mood while managing your stuff. It’s like shopping on mobile or on desktop. You are more likely to make quick and emotional decisions on mobile.
That sucks, but damage is done. I suppose you consolidated into multiple mid sized utxos, not all into one giant utxo? If so I would consolidate no further. You can only reveal more info that way. Mixing is definitely an option, though they will know you mixed and how many coins you are likely to have. Or you sell kyc and use that fiat to stack again non kyc.
Interesting.
Can you explain me why I should want to have only non kyc.
Not that I’m considering to ever sell (why would I)
But what if I have to sell because of some financial issue and everything is non kyc, pretty difficult to transfer it back to fiat imo
For sure, kyc is more liquid and has less of a premium attached to it. Kyc coins have their own risks like financial surveilance, black listing or exchange hacks that could doxx your btc stack and potentially making you a target. But it might make sense to have a kyc stack for financial emergencies and a non kyc stack for long term hodling. It really depends on your situation and threat a model. Just make sure to keep the stacks strictly separate. Use a wallet that lets you use coin control and utxo labelling like sparrow or electrum so when you send larger payments you can control which utxos get combined. Just my two cents, hope that makes sense
Makes a lot of sense! Thanks
Wish I understood what you are saying.
Watch this
https://youtu.be/Mqe0QCxjKpI?si=s0pQMMFm0Cr-AEVK
Its actually not that difficult as it seems haha
Some weird terms indeed. But in reality it’s not that hard. Check out the link nostr:npub1w8rrew9yye3lla4hr5uuh7zx9he6qu2rd55hwx9ctyyp0rjqz45q9ch663 shared indeed ;)
UTXO = “Unspent Transaction Output” which is just the term for a balance of Bitcoin (denominated in units called “Satoshis” or “sats”…100,000,000 sats = 1 Bitcoin) that can spent or saved at will.
KYC = “Know Your Customer” which is a financial regulation where the identity of the customer needs to be verified before they purchase Bitcoin (or open a bank account as KYC was originally created for)
If you buy Bitcoin with no KYC that means there is no identity tied to that UTXO and it can be spent pseudonymously eg without anyone knowing the identity of the person who spent the funds.
The BTC sessions video will explain UTXO consolidation better than I can here but with the other terms defined it will make it much easier to follow.
Have a nice day! 🥩
Sweet thank you for explaining. At this point I am getting familiar with the kyc being custodial and non kyc non custodial wallet kind of situation. I am slow in remembering what the abbreviation translates to.
The utxo is new term to get used to.
So quickie question though...
I'm assuming once someone has moved their transactions from kyc to non kyc wallet they are trackable by gov agencies. And even if they open a new kyc wallet and move everything again from their first non kyc they are still trackable potentially? Or in theory it doesn't have to mean you are transferring your money back to yourself. It could be you sent them to someone else who is unidentifiable?
What's the best way to get off the records?
No no your getting something wrong.
If you buy Bitcoin on a centralized exchange on which you have to fulfill KYC and your transfer that to cold storage, it is still KYC Bitcoin.
Non kyc is just when you buy for example peer to peer (in cash from somebody else without KYC)
Once you mix the UTXOs, it’s not ‘compromised’ and turned into KYC
Custodial = means you do not hold the keys to the funds and they aren’t really yours. Wallet of Satoshi is custodial.
Self-custodial = you hold the keys and have sole control of the balance.
KYC means you bought the Bitcoin and it’s tied to your identity. You can deposit that Bitcoin is a custodial wallet or self-custody it the same. It’s just that KYC transactions can be tied to your identity.
I would mix several times in wasabi and transfer to a cold wallet.
When I started un CrYpTo (I know, what can I say?) I went for the convenience of KYC, now I don't use KYC, but I keep the KYC stash untouched. If the taxman comes, that's what I have. I consolidated not long ago into a single UTxO and consider it a duress address.
Sparrow wallet has a built in mixer. Send your coins there and mix 10x+ times. Youll get a batch called "badbank" that is the excess and unmixable. I throw these in liquid or lightning
Thanks sir! Appreciate this
What is you get financial issues and have to sell Bitcoin for fiat.
Isn’t it very difficult to use non kyc. Have heard a lot of stories that centralized financial system don’t accept sats from that origin.
So I’m thinking. Isn’t there also a downside to non kyc
There are trades happening nonKYC as we speak in person, on platforms like Robosats, ect. There is built in protections with something like robosats that ensures you get your money. This is one of the benefits of our amazing technology. Everyone who tries to control it wastes all their money and power trying to do so
Id highly recommend checking out robosats, i cant recommend bisq cause i personally have never used it. Setup an offer to sell $50-100 on the platform, something youre comfortable testing with. Get familiar with the process, look at how it secures the funds, even try to see if you can break it somehow. Its pretty fantastic in my opinion, and the only way i buy btc now. They are pushing changes that will make it even more amazing too.
Thank you! Will definitely look into it
That is a fallacy. All bitcoin is non-KYC except to the person who attached their government ID to their bitcoin withdrawal address by using a KYC service. Every business that is trying to filter bitcoin based on whether the person sending it is KYC'd to the addresses they are sending from would require total network surveillance. That may actually happen, where a centralized surveillance provider must be queried to approve of transactions. But any bitcoin in such a scenario is captured. Transacting with such a business will be dealing with the devil that is bent on bringing bitcoin to heel.
1M sats or higher.
Liquid or LN swap is cheaper than mixing rn
the comments are a good read for tradeoffs/different perspectives.
personally, I'd mix it all and make that the "nokyc" stack. if nostr:npub1w8rrew9yye3lla4hr5uuh7zx9he6qu2rd55hwx9ctyyp0rjqz45q9ch663 wants more kyc sats, I think it'd be best to start another KYC stack separate from the rest of your stack (if you want more KYC corn)
GL fren 🫡🤙
Essentially, it comes down to two points:
- Your non-KYC UTXOs combined with KYC ones become KYC UTXOs.
- Do you mind the future traceability of these UTXOs?
If yes:
Mix them three or more times and transfer to cold storage. This breaks the link to your identity for subsequent transactions.
If no:
Directly place your UTXOs into cold storage without mixing.
Regarding UTXO size, you already have my recommendation from earlier today.
Yes thank you bro!! So happy to have your help!!!!
KYC applies to the withdrawal address from a KYC exchange. Your mugshot is literally attached to that address, and everything that touches it, like your other bitcoin. If you are holding it for posterity, then do them a favor and mix it and cold store it, so they don't have to deal with some bullshit transfer/capital gains/6102/or other bullshit that comes along to steal potentially ALL your bitcoin. Yes, all, because that is the direction those thieves are taking this.
Best way forward is sell and rebuy non-kyc if your stack is still small. Otherwise mix it and leave it, then start building non-kyc stack and keep it separated (different derivation path).
