What many people don't get is that "custodial vs. non-custodial" is NOT about how secure the Bitcoin is that's held by the custodian. It doesn't matter. Think like an autist or a mathematician:

Do you control your Bitcoin, yes or no?

It's not about "how easy can someone collude to steal your Bitcoin that you don't control" or "does the code run in an HSM" or "theft would be detectable". All these things don't matter for this question. They're interesting but that's not the point. You're thinking about the wrong categories, namely *security*, not *custody*.

Words have meaning. Unilateral exit is a necessary condition.

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So for Cashu, the answer is sometimes?

No for Cashu it's "no you don't control the Bitcoin"

I see, because the unilateral exit is to Lightning. So is Lightning “sometimes”?

There's no unilateral exit to Lightning unfortunately. It's technically impossible. We don't even have many options for on-chain exit other than Lighting, Ark, and state chains. Maybe bitvm based things but that's still vaporware at this point.

True I should know this. At any point the mint can disable lightning exchange for ecash.

There is unilateral exit in lightning : you can force-close a channel.

I said TO lightning, not from ;)

yes, you can exit from Lightning.

Reading is hard, soz

No worries mate. It's an important point.

The art of financial slavery is to not let anyone know they are slaves

Are you suggesting self custody is #autistic ? That seems ballpark right 😭😭😂

Sorry 😔 .. it was pun ..intended !

Wise words! I would say that there is a clear difference. Bravo street 🤟🤝

For those currently working for someone else as an employee, their labor is already held hostage in your employees custody. Trusting an employer to manage a mint doesn't add any new risk vectors, it eliminates banks from the equation.

'Payroll Mints' seem a potential product/market fit, hopefully shortening pay periods once the toll booths operators are gone. i.e. hourly/daily, rather than weekly/bi-weekly payouts.

'Redeeming' earned eCash through LN, topping off LN spending wallets on its way into on-chain savings. Obfuscating our public earnings thru eCash & LN, before privately allocating savings into the public on-chain ledger.

This IS The Way!

my father used to get his paycheck from his employer every week in an envelope in cash

that was 30 years ago

sound familiar?

I have learned the hard way as an independent contractor to ALWAYS get paid at the time services are rendered. I've literally had clients call and stop payment on checks before I could drive straight to THEIR bank to cash them. Experience taught me to NOT deposit into my own accounts, to just eat the fees for non-account holders, AND to offer a discount for paper cash payouts to avoid these risks and headaches entirely.

I foresee LN redeemable NFC 'payroll' Nutstashes evolving as reusable expense, stipend, and payroll payment keychain doggles.

Maybe the first question is what do you have custody of?

On liquid one could say you have custody of your L-BTC.

Same goes for cashus.

The BTC itself is of course custodied by something else

I feel custody is downstream of security and censorship resistance; integral yes, but still downstream. Thus privacy becomes a factor than can be as important as custody.

If you don't have self-custody, you don't own your bitcoins.

Quit using autists as derogatory term. If there were no autusts, you would be in a stone age environment.

I used mathematician as a deragoratory term

🫡 nevent1qqs27ku3jxcu8l4s489jtwkh4dq4syplz5kjcee00sdwg95vw2tqkdcpzemhxw309ucnjv3wxymrst338qhrww3hxumnwnrdzh8

I think I get your point at the autistic level but doesn't that leave a vagueness to the definition of custodial?

Wouldn't giving my money to Tom to hold for me be a riskier endeavor than giving it to a local board that now has reputational risk spread across it's members? Maybe Tom is a dick but probabilistically wouldn't there be a lower chance that the consensus of Tom, Peter, Frank, George and Lisa are all dicks since it increases the total reputation on the line across all members?

That's a valid point to a degree. Ties back in with what nostr:npub1jg552aulj07skd6e7y2hu0vl5g8nl5jvfw8jhn6jpjk0vjd0waksvl6n8n are doing with their federation and #Liquid

What's safer? Bitcoin on an exchange, Liquid Bitcoin under federation on a cold wallet, on-chain on a cold wallet.

There are cases for each dependent upon current needs.

But yep, own node has its own benefits