GM
Most "bitcoiners" still have fiat brain.
It is extremely difficult to eradicate the assumptions of the fundamental environment we exist is.
The USD valuation of things is a distraction and measures little more than speculative interest.
#bitcoin
Discussion
Cope 
your meme literally proves the point of mine
And yours proves the point of mine
What a paradox
"monero bros care about fiat just as much as I do"
is just a reflection of your own USD obsession.
My “obsession” with “fiat” as you call it is more an obsession with saving enough value to not have to trade my life for a salary to provide freedom for myself and my family. If that is fiat obsession then sure.
There must be some way to measure value if you can’t then it’s all semantics and philosophy.
"freedom" is tricky
Saylor has "freedom" as long as he plays along and doesn't challenge the money printer.
likewise, everyone who is ultimately in Bitcoin for fiat gainz so they can exist within the system comfortably has "freedom"
personally
thats not freedom.
the Trojans horse meme is a rationalization so Bitcoiners can believe they seek real freedom
when they actually just want a comfortable life.
and thats the difference between your meme and mine
i say "stay uncomfortable. dont believe the charts."
you say "you actually really want to be comfortable also. the charts must measure something important"
but thats just you're own priorities.
Naw your twisting things to suit your own beliefs I said nothing about comfort. If I was about a “comfortable life” I would have never backpacked and solo traveled in remote areas that are anything but comfortable. Not what freedom is about to me.
yeah thats fair
guess I'm just making a point
it's going to zero even agains't Fiat. If you bought many years ago, you would still be down by now. It's a failed project.
show your work penguin
talk is cheap.
Zoom out frend.
If you bought Monero in 2018 (7 years ago) you would be at huge loss.
If you bought Monero in 2021 (4 years ago) you would be at huge loss.
If you bought Monero over the past 3 years, so you would still be at loss because it's value went sideways.
It only moved recently because Roger (Bitcoin Cash shitcoiner) went on Tuck podcast and mentioned it.
I bought monero at 60 USD,
like 6 years ago...?
its 220 today.
weird how you think I should be upset about that.
What if you bought at the top (the dates i mentioned)? Most monero hodlers are still down bad to this day.
oh I see
so you *meant* to say
"XMR doesn't keep up with fiat, if you look at it with my cherry-picked timeframes"
well you're certainly correct 👍
lol. Finally get what you mean when you dismiss the xmr/btc chart as "fiat" lol. You should frame it this way instead, as the usual phrasing leads one to believe you might not know what "factors out" means 😅
you mean frame it as in the meme?
When you dismiss xmr/btc ratio, because it "goes through usd" or however you say it, makes less clear your point since it's mathematically false (as in there's no usd in the equation)
usually I say
XMR/USD
divided by
BTC/USD
is clearly USD denominated.
even though in mathematics the denominators cancel out.
because the point is that IRL the UNITS that you are comparing the ratio of, are USD.
we don't arrive at hard money by doing the division of two fiat numbers.
on some exchanges there are straight altcoin pairs ETH/DOGE or whatever
and USD doesn't enter into it at all
But *even then*
if the price deviates from ETH/USD÷DOGE/USD ratio
a million bots jump in and force it back toward a USD standard.
because its an arbitrage opportunity and USD is the most liquid asset (ie money).
which is why its so important Bitcoiners realize the depth of the problem.
Very well said. Have seen endless back and forths previously where this point wasn't laid out so well, and reps were wasted in discourse.
USD most salable asset not changing anytime soon, such are network effects/UoAs I guess. Not sure even sensical not to embrace it as the best complete linearly ordered expression of universal preference. At least for time being.
That said, yes "fiat speculation" helps BTC price more than xmr... not even sure I could make the argument, but sense there's some truth to it
This is the same guy that used your high follower count to have people gang up on me gaslighting me about how in their opinions nothing can possibly matter except dollar values and I'm delusional for using other numbers in my math nostr:nevent1qqsydpguyawahfc5p5367y38ex5hgpqsveky72p4p3j4l492s3ekl5gpzemhxw309ucnjv3wxymrst338qhrww3hxumnwq3qlxzaxzge0jq9u9cecucctdt5lslwgp7hcxmp2l0wn8r2ecjenwasxpqqqqqqz78z9l5
Think I saw some of that, hard to be sure. Don't wanna dredge that up here, but yeah basically same feeling on what I recall there. Pricing via some other commodity is either foolish (you and kanzan don't seem like fools), or some sort of 5head insight that I'm missing.
The meme is somewhere more in between, which I can kind of admit as accurate enough
Keeping books in doggie coin would be really inconvenient but would show you the full amount of money you lose by operating a business instead of just holding doge
Keeping books in dollars is really convenient, but makes you think you're making a profit if they just print more money to give you
Gold and silver are nice middle grounds to denominate values in
how do you determine the value of gold and silver without touching USD?
I answered you in the thread I linked before
explain how you determine a numerical value for gold and silver without touching USD
right here in this thread
or GTFO
Concise would be nice too 😬
Trade for something other than USD
Or do what I already said, use the data from the people who trade for stuff other than USD
UoA is what it is. Hard to dethrone, and imHo pointless to ignore for now and some time to come. Only convoluted things for me since there's always the "bots arb any misalignment" argument in any meaningful marketplace
I really think it's hard to overstate the psychological impacts of business operators thinking they're making profit when they get politicians to print more money
That's a separate issue. Cantillion effect stuff, no?
Either I don't understand what cantillion effect means or it's not real
The people closest to the money printers get more of the superficial benefits of the soft money system, but the benefits are still superficial for everyone since we really mainly need a way to reverse the imbalance of nature we've caused
I'm no expert, and maybe I'm stretching the def a bit, but feels same vein to me.
Not sure I got your point, a bit vague maybe.
Not sure I have time/energy to get to bottom of disconnect...hungry!
Cantillion effect is centralized theft from the many, awarded to some few iiuc. The businesses that directly benefit, or are 2nd 3rd downstream etc also benefit. As a rule, deviation of economic rewards from natural free market (ie centrally determined) distort shit and move us away from better game theoretic equilibriua/outcomes
Good chat, enjoy some food 🤙
Thought for a while to reply concisely - perhaps cantillion effect applies to financial/capital wealth, but ignores overall wealth, like capitalism itself does, and thus the underrated problem with using soft money denominations for convenience
Reread previous reply, and maybe this helped a bit.
Agree soft money creates false appearance of better outcome. The mechanism is at least partially captured by what I'm meaning when I say Cantillion effect. The rewards are very real to the theives, and often those same theives will prefer metrics that look favorably on the outcomes they create (think this is what you're touching on)
But yeah, those are likely bad and holding us back from something better (possibly unimaginably better), which is why it feels evil (not to mention getting your pocket picked). With a hard money there'd be way less of this possible.
The theme is, for me, anything that pulls us away from p2p efficient trade (that includes use of a hard monetary tech) must have worse outcomes
The freest trade is in primitive anarcho-communism also known as the "gift economy" anthropologists say we had before money
But that might not be the most optimal system in all situations
I think there are no real benefits for the thieves, they're just kleptomaniacs who need mental help because their actions have consequences
Give me a free milli and I'll show you real benefits for me lol. You're right on a more cosmic level maybe.
Free-est (sp?) trade is that? I'm criminally unread on anarcho anything. Trying to remedy that a bit but it kind of feels like homework when I read Austrian Econ stuff (close enough to anarcho stuff for me!).
Was gonna post something deep sounding this morning that I recently learned. Synthetic a priori proposition. Still struggling to really understand so decided to save post for another time (prob never)
In the gift economy, everyone just gave others what they needed knowing they would need others to do the same later
It can be argued this type of economy doesn't stimulate development of medicine and stuff without some way to manipulate it, like money/barter, but humans seem to deeply prefer a gift economy at scales where it works
A free milli might have benefits for you depending how free it really is, but theft and brainwashing have heavy cost, not very free
Yes yes, heavy cost... on others! Muhuhahah. Gimme
Gift economy doesn't scale (its combinatorics, and trade across distance and time where it fails), but is sort of the ideal p2p theoretical model. Lyn's book does a good job describing need for money as a technology imo.
Haven't read about example you're possibly specifically describing but that's my understanding from bitcoin books I've read
Had been fruitful exchange, don't write out thoughts on this often. Ty
Thank you too, good thoughts to type out. You've hinted at some further reading for me too 🤙
One specific short rec on reading that is related, this 10 minute read. Essay on Cooperation (pg 67) is good foundation for why the p2p utopia is real. Don't feel obligated to read (I don't read half stuff I say I will on here), but here's a link if interested (good book overall, full of playful subversive humor)
1. You randomly wanting me to rephrase myself for no reason doesn't give you the authority to make me leave nostr so what the fuck does "GTFO" mean
2. Here's another answer since you're so desperate for one: trade for something other than USD
You're the same guy that used your high follower count to have people gang up on me gaslighting me about how in your opinion nothing can possibly matter except dollar values and I'm delusional for using other numbers in my math
I think you mean
I took you to school and you had no response except word salad and quibbling about the definition of everyday words.
but sure
my huge follower count 😂
caused you a big problem no doubt
I meant what I said
And it did cause a huge problem, it 𝖙𝖗𝖎𝖌𝖌𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖉 me to file a false spam report on you that I can never take back
But I'm the one that took you to school and you're the one that was posting incoherent shit. Look at this dumb fucking post again nostr:nevent1qqsydpguyawahfc5p5367y38ex5hgpqsveky72p4p3j4l492s3ekl5gpzemhxw309ucnjv3wxymrst338qhrww3hxumnwq3qlxzaxzge0jq9u9cecucctdt5lslwgp7hcxmp2l0wn8r2ecjenwasxpqqqqqqz78z9l5
once more for those in the cheap seats 📢
you are just cheering speculation on #bitcoin.