People don't realize that #Bitcoin can conquer a $100+ trillion market simply because of multisig and the unbreakable reliability of its settlement.

There is no collateral that can even come close to any of the 5 most important traits you want in a perfect collateral. Bitcoin destroys all of it.

- quick to exchange

- easy to verify

- easy & quick to liquidate at any time on any day

- cant be damaged, perfectly portable

- completely unmatched in mitigating trust and custody concerns

Literally nothing is even in the same ballpark.

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Powerful Truth nostr:nprofile1qyfhwumn8ghj7ctvvahjuat50phjummwv5q32amnwvaz7tm9v3jkutnwdaehgu3wd3skueqqyzu7we2xhgry2mknq8v7227yn7jguu9xhu3g90n6rtnjj3mpyq3ackdvvhl !

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpw08v4rt5pj9dmfsrk0990zflfywwznt7g5zheap4eefgasjqg7uqyt8wumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qqsg28zgrdev8dkazdkqgy6wt3m8q62fpqr5n2yvm7y3dzh66fcrwsg7g3m0r

True that

"Literally nothing is even in the same ballpark"

Quite so. Literally nothing.

Well said!

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Decentralized Digital Scarcity. Bitcoins value prop. Nothing else does these 3 things together as good as bitcoin

Two Bbitcoiners at the same ballgame would be in the same ballpark? āš¾ļø

nostr:nevent1qqsg28zgrdev8dkazdkqgy6wt3m8q62fpqr5n2yvm7y3dzh66fcrwsgx9gddt

> liquidate

What's the meaning of that.

Redeem for the value of the loan if someone can’t repay. The ā€œrepossessā€ version of real estate except that it just repays the loan and what’s left over goes back to the borrower.

I’ll bite.

X- Quick to exchange: 10 minutes for an average settlement, 1 hour if you want to wait 10 the recommended 6 confirmations. Vs Visa which is instant.

X- Easy to verify: you can see a public key has paid you, so then you have to check that the person who has paid you is that public key. Not really easy.

X- Easy and quick to liquidate on any day at any time: let’s say someone hands you some bitcoin. Go liquidate it, or come back in 3 days when Coinbase has denied your KYC application.

X- Can’t be damaged. Perfectly portable: well it can’t be destroyed but it can easily be lost, as the guy wanting to buy an entire rubbish site can attest to. You can move it if you can remember 12 words, just don’t forget one. Carrying it on a USB, well, good luck if your in/outbound customs wants to know what’s on your USB.

Your last point about trust and custody is kinda just repetition so I’ll leave it.

Maybe nothing else would want to be in this ballpark.

In my understanding:

1- visa is not final settlement, you are not comparing the same same things (if you want to use visa you should compare it to lighting or cashu)

2- btc sent via the network is btc, no need to verify anything else. If I make an invoice or make a wallet address just to receive your payment and it is paid, I know it’s you

3- here I think you have a point. I guess in a world where we all use btc and there’s no fiat anymore this problem will not be present (but until then I believe you have a point)

4- cannot be damaged in any way. You can damage a gold bar, a house, land or other. Btc cannot be damaged in any way. Worst case scenario you lose it but that’s a different story

So let’s rate bitcoin a 5/10 as fulfilling satoshi’s goal of p2p ecash at scale. Admittedly I don’t think he intended it to scale. It was a cool hobby project

I’m genuinly confused as to how you reached that conclusion after reading my reply, but it’s always nice to exchange points of view šŸ‘šŸ¼

Imagine you had a house but the only way you could access it was to either call up a12 word phrase every time you wanted to enter, or trust someone else that they can hold your phrase but never use it, and if they broke the promise your house would be gone forever. Moreover if you ever lost your 12 words and third party ā€˜convenience’ key you would also lose your house forever. And not only that, the price of houses might continue to rise, forever making your loss more painful.

Now imagine that your house’s structure, rarity and other fundamental aspects could be changed by other people who owned houses. You were told that there would only ever be 21m of your house, but that number has been doubled a few times in history with the ā€˜non-houses’ conveniently relabelled as ā€˜kennels’ or something. Yet every house owner repeats that there has only ever been 21m of your house and there only ever will be.

You start to think that maybe you should sell your house. Of course mentioning this to other house owners is the quickest way not to be invited over for dinner parties. But you persist. You work out the way to sell this asset is either through a centralised exchange that required 100 points of ID and could freeze your account without notice or reasonable dispute, or label your house as ā€˜tainted’, through a decentralised exchange that is technically illegal in many countries or an in person meetup where a $5 wrench might convince you to part with your house for no compensation.

You decide to trust the centralised agency, no, the decentralised one, no the in person stranger…. wondering why so much trust is required in this house system you were told was trustless.

You get out at a price you think is a bit below what you thought, and decide to buy an actual house.

5/10 at best.

1) personal responsibiliy has upside and downside. I take personal responsibility anyday (since we can see what trusting central entities has brought to us). If you loose your keys is because you are a fool and have not done things propoerly, it's not a weakness of the system.

2) zero trust will never exist. Btc consensus mechanisma dni ncentives structure is the best thing we ever had in history. As above, I will take this anyday (also, you sepak as if the existing system doesn't bend the rules whenever they need, and make the rules in secret, and we cannot vote on any of the important decisions).

3) The imposition of KYC btc acceptance only is absolutely unferasible. Is a temporary madness that will last max 5 years (if not even).

You speak as if the existin system has none of the criticism you just raised against btc (it has them in a much bigger size and it's way worse than the btc system in any way). There a re no perfect solution, only trade offs, and btc is way better than the existing system

All this I'm saying with peace and love man

You seem young. Wait a few years and see if you’re still calling people who misplace keys foolish and not deserving of those assets or help from others.

Peace and love back at ya

To end the convo I did call ppl who lose their keys foolish, but I never said they don’t deserve those assets or help from others (just wanted to clarify this!)

"Look guys, all that matter is price, use KYC systems, non sovereign btc wallets, but is ok, you will be rich, trust me broo"

#bitcoin

#monero

#nostr

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Is anyone doing Bitcoin-backed loans using Bitcoin as collateral via a multisig? The only one i can think of is nostr:nprofile1qqs2wn8h6dw8snma59c93yzuan0tjhwk67vf7w9erj43cxwpx7umsts8rj46g

Neutron in SE Asia, Vield in Australia.

Unchained

Unchained, Firefish, and I *think* Debifi.

Ledn doesn’t do multisig which is sad, but they do proof of reserves which any company that does custody without proof of reserves is a scam, imo. Still don’t understand how that’s not a standard already in Bitcoin. Coinfloor has been doing it for like a decade.

We do 3/4 multisig.

Users can provide their own key through a HWW, or by using the key generated by our open source app.

šŸ‘‡šŸ¼šŸ‘‡šŸ¼šŸ‘‡šŸ¼šŸ‘‡šŸ¼

nostr:nevent1qqsg28zgrdev8dkazdkqgy6wt3m8q62fpqr5n2yvm7y3dzh66fcrwsgx9gddt

People think Bitcoin will reach an upper market capacity like it ends someday. Bitcoin is a clock of value, does a clock ever stop? No.

Bitcoin never stops growing in value, it'll surpass all Gold, all currency, all real estate, all stocks and bonds, all assets, everything. And it'll keep going, forever.

We'll have no choice but to subdivide it regularly, adding decimals of division beyond the satoshi every few years.

The cost of Bitcoin's production against time will never stop being adjusted, we will extend the halving cycle indefinitely, we will never stop mining new coins as the new mined amounts will just get ever smaller.

oh cool!

its digital real estate.

also

It's "easy to liquidate at any time" IF you're compliant with the legacy system

Liquidate directly into end assets noob.

Negotiate with a seller and pay in #bitcoin. It gets easier every day until we are literally on a bitcoin standard worldwide.

Fiat dies, don't you get it yet?

No concern over bitcoin core developments on non-transaction data acceptance? What pushes knots adoption to dominance? Should node runners care?

No. Its an annoying problem (and i do run knots), but its not existential.