Through study of the new testament and the manuscripts included in the King James I have found no extra texts which I deem need to be included or text included which I would exclude.

The compilation is sufficiently and irreducably complex.

With regards to the new testament it frequently cites and refers back to the old. This is what I consider a two witnesses minimum as described by Moses.(I know he meant it in the context of witnesses and accusers in the case of a crime, I am applying it more broadly in the way we determine if a historical text has a degree of verifiability)

When Jesus cites an old testament manuscript, like Jonah for instance he lends credence to the books historicity which many "scholars" would flippantly dismiss because of the texts fantastic claim. I on the other hand find no issue with the possibility of someone surviving such an event. Because I believe it happened (for multiple reasons not all relevant to this discussion) based on the fact that I hold Jesus in such esteem that I believe he would not qoute something if he did not value the account of it. There is text in the old testament that I would dispute more ardently than I would the new.

There are events in the new testament that I have read and understood but when I discussed my perception and understanding with christians in general they shout at me as if I am crazy but my statement is textually accurate and verifiably true.

So, just because I believe the new Testament is canonised by men. Does not mean that I believe a manuscript should be added or removed. That is an assumption on your part.

Moving on.

I call on witnesses to make my further claim.

Paul (1st witness) wrote that we should test all and retain that which is good. This supposes that he does not restrict lessons and edification to scripture alone but allows us to draw knowledge and inspiration from information extant to the "canon".

Joshua and Samuel (2nd & 3rd witnesses)

both state. "Is it not written in the book of Jasher?"

If God is indeed the author of Joshua and Samuel (like you claim) then why would He have referenced a book that no scholar on earth including myself would consider anything more but a compilation of stories which have value only in marginal and fringe research of history?

Would you value it if God referenced it as a source to verify events? Of course you must.

By nature of your claim you might just as well include the book of the upright into your supposed canon.

I do not fear reading it as I have. I do not fear drawing a valuable allegory or conclusion from it as I have. Most of what is recorded in it is utterly useless information.

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> “Through study of the new testament and the manuscripts included in the King James I have found no extra texts which I deem need to be included or text included which I would exclude.
The compilation is sufficiently and irreducably complex.”

Then this is something we agree on in regards to which books are in the canon.

> “Because I believe it happened (for multiple reasons not all relevant to this discussion) based on the fact that I hold Jesus in such esteem that I believe he would not qoute something if he did not value the account of it. There is text in the old testament that I would dispute more ardently than I would the new.”

According to this you also believe the Bible because of God. So we agree there too.

> “So, just because I believe the new Testament is canonised by men. Does not mean that I believe a manuscript should be added or removed. That is an assumption on your part.”

So far I did not assume anything IMHO. My question would be here, since you say you believe it was canonized by men, how do you know it is the correct canon? How do you know that Revelations belongs into the Bible? Or that Gospel of Barnabas doesn’t?

> ”Paul (1st witness) wrote that we should test all and retain that which is good. This supposes that he does not restrict lessons and edification to scripture alone but allows us to draw knowledge and inspiration from information extant to the "canon”.”

Paul says that the scripture is sufficient to make us perfect workers of God. Which means we don’t need anything else. Also whenever he was challenged on something Jesus always said “have you not READ?” So he was using scriptures as his authority. Which sets a good example for us and protects us from error. We should not add to the scripture but test everything against the scripture.

> “Joshua and Samuel (2nd & 3rd witnesses)
both state. "Is it not written in the book of Jasher?"

If God is indeed the author of Joshua and Samuel (like you claim) then why would He have referenced a book that no scholar on earth including myself would consider anything more but a compilation of stories which have value only in marginal and fringe research of history?

Would you value it if God referenced it as a source to verify events? Of course you must.
By nature of your claim you might just as well include the book of the upright into your supposed canon.”

That’s a wrong assumption. Just because it is mentioned doesn’t mean it should be included in the canon. Paul mentions also Greek writers and epistles we don’t have. They are not part of the canon.

“I do not fear reading it as I have. I do not fear drawing a valuable allegory or conclusion from it as I have. Most of what is recorded in it is utterly useless information.”

Here we disagree profoundly. So you are saying Bible is useless information? What do you mean by that? Because the way I see the Bible is the only place I can learn about God and his will. Reliably.

Sorry man. I did a 1000 kilometer drive today and I'm exhausted. How do you quote me and answer me like you did? I would like to include that in my response later when I have time. You make some good points and misunderstand one of mine. On the last point, I was referring to the book of Jasher.

I read your debate and agree with you that we should use our ability to think to question everything. I am a Christian.

Can you explain to me why the stories in the Old Testament are so different from those in the New?

Different focus, different language and time. OT is mostly narrative, history, poetry and prophecy and NT is basically all about Jesus and the gospel.

Hi Paul. Yes, I don't think the book of Esther is grounded in physical reality. I think it is a fictitious writing.

No problem! Have a good rest. The Convo won't run away haha

You can do it by doing markdown style commenting.

Using "> QUOTE return, blankline"

I want to adress what you said earlier.

"Men are fallible, God is not and as such we can only trust God's word not men's words."

I agree that man - singular is fallible.

If man is fallible that means that it is very hard for him to get along with his fellow man.

If they do not get along they disagree. When they disagree an opportunity is created for them to argue, discover and learn.

If they, through this process of reason, manage to discover some divine grain of truth. That truth will permeate the concsiousness of all men who understand that applying the knowledge gained will improve their lives and the lives of those around them. Proving the truth by manifesting it into their reality through working and refining their understanding.

Their fallibility is not detrimental to their pursuit of truth but the reason for it. When they form cults and groups it is a competition for truth veracity and dominance. The truth always wins in the end.

Sometimes God gifts us by injecting truth directly into our world. Like Exodus 20 God introducing himself to Moses and the life of Jesus.

We fallible men who are originally created in the image of God are the benefactors of divine truth and seek to understand it and when we realise something profound we seek to preserve it. I believe that this is a miracle of creation. That men could discover truth by reason of desire to understand pain and suffering in a dark world.

This makes the love of Christ for the oikoumene in John 3:16 more powerful and understandable. Because if God loves anything less than that He is diminished. When claimed that men who are created in His image and animated by his spirit are less than capable to discover, understand and manifest truth in the world. All glory to Him for being the source by virtue of being the creator. We can clearly see where he injected truth directly into the world.

Man's fallibility is a gift to us.

> If they, through this process of reason, manage to discover some divine grain of truth. That truth will permeate the concsiousness of all men who understand that applying the knowledge gained will improve their lives and the lives of those around them. Proving the truth by manifesting it into their reality through working and refining their understanding.

What makes us Christians though is that we believe the gospel and are saved when we do it. And even through 50 years of contemplation in a cave in Tibet - you’ll never learn that Jesus gave his life for us and that by believing that you are saved.

> Sometimes God gifts us by injecting truth directly into our world. Like Exodus 20 God introducing himself to Moses and the life of Jesus.

the Bible is God teaching us about his plan and himself. This is how we can learn about Jesus, gospel, what God wants.

> We fallible men who are originally created in the image of God are the benefactors of divine truth and seek to understand it and when we realise something profound we seek to preserve it. I believe that this is a miracle of creation. That men could discover truth by reason of desire to understand pain and suffering in a dark world.

Adam was created in the image of God. We are in the image of Adam.

> This makes the love of Christ for the oikoumene in John 3:16 more powerful and understandable. Because if God loves anything less than that He is diminished. When claimed that men who are created in His image and animated by his spirit are less than capable to discover, understand and manifest truth in the world. All glory to Him for being the source by virtue of being the creator. We can clearly see where he injected truth directly into the world.

Yes. And you learn it from the Bible, which God revealed to us.

> Man's fallibility is a gift to us.

No. It is a result of sin.

Contemplating in caves in tibet is not a useful tactic. The best way to discover truth is to search for it and caves is useful for hiding and shelter not searching.

The Bible is the most useful tool to discover the truth of which Jesus is the end of the search but the beginning of a life of freedom and peace. The journey does not end once you found life.

The preserved texts is this truth. We just copy and compile into convenient formats because we value it. We also make sure that it remains as close to originally written intent so as not to mislead or inject personal agendas into the text. Where there are many critical readers and scholars it is very difficult to corrupt a work of this decentralized nature.

Adam image of God we are in the image of Adam. Mans fallibility. I think these two discussion points should be the topic of further debate and deliberation.

But we should open a new thread on one of Willy's newer posts, because this one is becoming a bit loaded.

Maybe Willy can post something about Adam?