I've never used X/Twitter. Someone showed it to me today and I suddenly realized why all NOSTR apps/clients suck. It's because they are all trying to be and look like X/Twitter. For fuck sake, I'm tired of reading the bottom of posts before the top of posts. Newest posts should be on the bottom. Scrolling should happen the same way one reads, top to bottom. I wouldn't read a book, newspaper or magazine from bottom to top. Are there any NOSTR clients that defy this stupid UI/UX design? #asknostr #amethyst #primal #snort
Discussion
Interesting. Do you also read your emails in the opposing order?
No because... Most email clients only show the subject, you have to click to open it. Completely different IMHO.
What you're talking about is a totally different medium. But I agree, it would be a much healthier way to consume social media. However, it requires drawing lines regarding what the "top" is, and implementing automated filtering to reduce the amount of content to a manageable size. This is harder than simply showing the most recent stuff to the end user.
Thinking more about this, Telegram and Discord do a better job. They offer a continue where you left off and scroll in a logical manner OR "jump to the latest". SMS apps on most phones also follow this logical strategy. My newest messages are ALWAYS on the bottom.
Not necessarily. The client could still show you the most recent posts, but you would just have to scroll up to get to past posts. The client itself could also keep track of where you left off in the feed, and take you back to that location the next time you open the app, with the option to skip downward to the most recent posts, like Discord does.
I do think this kind of UI makes much better sense for chat apps like Discord, Telegram, text messages, Session, and now Flotilla and ChaChi, though. It is less necessary for things like forums, email, microblogging, or long-form blogs, though.
In chat apps, you often need the context of the conversation. And you'll notice that on microblogging apps, replies to an original post usually go back to this "most recent reply is on the bottom" arrangement for exactly that reason.
Original posts in microblogging apps don't usually have this contextual relationship with the other posts in the feed prior to them. Those posts are often entirely unrelated to one another. You don't have to "get caught up with the conversation" because the conversations are not part of the feed. They are one layer below that, in the thread of replies attached to the posts in the feed. Very much like email or forum posts, except without the original post being hidden beneath a subject line.
Microblogging apps, therefore, just like email and forums, assume the user will want to get into the most recent action first, and put it at the top of their feed, requiring them to scroll downward to get to older posts, the same way a website will put the most recent blog posts and articles at the top of the page, because they are the most immediately relevant.
Maybe nostr:npub1e3zglze5g2mq894pfw42kw8uwmyd8uc6m8mupctjfkfplgddglds4v7wja you are looking to use more of a chat client, rather than a microblogging client. In that case, check out Flotilla by our man nostr:npub1jlrs53pkdfjnts29kveljul2sm0actt6n8dxrrzqcersttvcuv3qdjynqn here, or ChaChi Chat.
This guy gets it
This "The client itself could also keep track of where you left off in the feed, and take you back to that location the next time you open the app, with the option to skip downward to the most recent posts, like Discord does. " I could agree with.
I don't know of any devs who would think this reversed order is an ideal UX for a microblogging app, though. Chat app, definitely, and there are a few you can check out there. But for kind 1 notes, I think you will always see those displayed with most recent at the top. Just like any other blogging platform for long-form blogs, but for short-form instead.
"Microblogging apps, therefore, just like email and forums, assume the user will want to get into the most recent action first"
This I disagree, email and forums usually only show the subject, not the entire post, from a reading standpoint, showing the entire post from the end to the beginning is "un-natural".
I don't know of any Nostr clients that show "the entire post from the end to the beginning." Maybe we are referring to different things as the "post" though.
In the example below from Coracle, there is an "entire post" from nostr:npub1ckp277xl73p8qrk9ncshsefj5ur5cq973da3atycnwlky6vqd8xq5r7tnx , clearly displayed from beginning to end, with the beginning of the post at the top, and the end of the post at the bottom." Below that, is a completely separate post from nostr:npub16eumpaxffppswucpeysysrya9uk39j06d5gr2tsnf6cupq3f4jdqyft6jc, also displayed from beginning to end.
Each of these separate posts reads quite naturally, because you don't need any context from nostr:npub16eumpaxffppswucpeysysrya9uk39j06d5gr2tsnf6cupq3f4jdqyft6jc' post in order to understand nostr:npub1ckp277xl73p8qrk9ncshsefj5ur5cq973da3atycnwlky6vqd8xq5r7tnx's post. What order each post appears in is entirely irrelevant, because they are unrelated posts. If nostr:npub16eumpaxffppswucpeysysrya9uk39j06d5gr2tsnf6cupq3f4jdqyft6jc' post appeared above nostr:npub1ckp277xl73p8qrk9ncshsefj5ur5cq973da3atycnwlky6vqd8xq5r7tnx's post, it would not provide any benefit to the reader of either post, since they are unrelated. If the post DOES need context from another post, users will reference that post from within their post, as nostr:npub16eumpaxffppswucpeysysrya9uk39j06d5gr2tsnf6cupq3f4jdqyft6jc has done with nostr:npub18ams6ewn5aj2n3wt2qawzglx9mr4nzksxhvrdc4gzrecw7n5tvjqctp424's beer post above. This is done because the author cannot rely on anyone who reads their post to have also read the post they are were to. They may not even be following nostr:npub18ams6ewn5aj2n3wt2qawzglx9mr4nzksxhvrdc4gzrecw7n5tvjqctp424, after all. Though... that is admittedly unlikely, since almost everyone on Nostr follows him.
Indeed, chronological order is only one among many ways that microblogging posts can be ordered. All sorts of algorithms are being developed, and many are already available, for users to choose how posts ought to be prioritized in their feed. Algorithms are not a bad thing. Lack of choice about what algorithm you want to use is one of the biggest issues with centralized social media, and one that Nostr is aiming to fix.
It is entirely possible that you could create your own algorithm that arranged posts in your feed so that you could view all the posts from those you follow that were posted in the last 24 hours, but with a reverse chronology, so the oldest was at the top, rather than the newest. The most likely clients to allow you to do such a thing right now would be Primal or Coracle. I don't think they have that particular way to order notes as an option yet, though. It could probably be done with a DVM feed, which both of those clients also support, but I have never tried to create one of those myself.
In general, though, microblogging follows the same ordering of events as long-form blogging. If you go to a blog site, the most recent blog will be displayed at the top, and you can read a preview of it before deciding if you want to click into it to read more, or you can scroll down to see older blogs. Microblogging usually doesn't have a need to only show a preview, since posts are intended to be relatively short, but for posts that get a bit lengthy, clients often do the exact same thing as long-form blog sites, displaying a preview and giving the option to click into the post to read the rest if you want.
Therefore, most users expect that a microblogging app, if the posts are displayed chronologically, will put the newest posts at the top, and older posts at the bottom.
Ordering is not the issue, scrolling is. Right now, new messages are stacked on top. From whatever post I'm on, to see newest posts you have to scroll in a manner where you see the bottom of the note filled with emojis and zaps with no context why these emojis and zaps exist because you haven't seen the text nor the author yet. Then you get to the top of post and then scroll in an opposite direction to read it. Then having to do the same stupid thing for each post.
What client are you using that you have to manually scroll up to see new posts? Most clients start you at the top with the most recent note first, and then you scroll down, seeing the author's information first, then the content they posted, and finally reactions from others.
When new posts are added to the top while you are scrolling down, most clients offer some means of jumping back to the top to see them, which would then give you the same ordering of author info at the top, then content, and then reactions.
If a feed was in the reverse order, and new posts were added to the bottom, then you would just have the same problem you are talking about when you are scrolling up to see previous posts. You would see the reactions first, without context as to why they are there, then the content, without knowing who wrote it, and finally the author.
This might be "solved" if the client remembered where you left off in the chronology, so you would rarely be scrolling up. But that comes back to what I mentioned before about not needing any context from previous posts in the feed to understand the post you are currently reading. Clients don't "save your place" for you, because where you left off really doesn't matter for consuming microblogging content. There is no inherent requirement that the user see every post in their feed in the order it was posted like there is for chat feeds. One post does not organically develop from the post that came before it, and therefore none of its meaning relies on ensuring you read the posts in the order they were posted.
Now, you might be able to find a dev that agrees with you and wants to present kind 1 notes with the most recent notes getting added to the bottom of the feed as they come in, rather than the top, and saving where you left off so you are still almost always scrolling downward to see newer and newer posts, but I have yet to encounter one. Indeed, you are the first person I have encountered who wanted or expected that experience from a microblog feed. It may be something you would have to build yourself if you want to see it built at all.
I'm using many clients, I will pay particular attention to new note notifications and see how that behaves. Might have to enable global feed so testing goes quicker...
*takes notes*
OK, so the compromise on Amethyst is to disable "Immersive Scrolling". This way as your scrolling down the list you see that new notes arrived via icon dot and can then tap the "Home" icon anytime bringing you to the very top where you can scroll downward in a natural manner until you reach posts you've already read, then rinse and repeat.
Will see how other clients behave. I clearly am the weirdo, I don't care about the newest post "Oh My", I just want it consumed in chronological order continuing from wherever I left off. #amethyst