people assume stalin killed millions of ukrainians on purpose but that was just communism doing what it does
he had good intentions
Discussion
Communism built nuclear power plants, aircraft factories, and major industrial enterprises in Ukraine. Capitalism turned Ukraine into a supplier of child prostitution, human organs, and cannon fodder.
you must be kidding me
No, this is a real fact. Regardless of how you feel about communism, technologically Ukraine developed only under it. Throughout its entire capitalist period, they haven’t been able to build anything.
it makes no sense to talk about "ukraine", you must mean the ukraine government
ukraine is in a mixed system now, not "capitalism" proper, but still the life of the average honest ukrainian is infinitely better than under communism, not even close
An honest Ukrainian gets electricity from power plants built by communists. Capitalism can offer him only the import of energy resources from developed countries.
And it's unclear what "mixed system" you're talking about. This is not Russia, this is Ukraine. Since the 90s, Ukraine has been a 100% capitalist state that bankrupted all its enterprises and sold its factories for scrap metal. If anything has remained there, it is thanks to the support of Yeltsin's Russia and the United States.
welcome to the vibrant laissez faire capitalism of mongolia, benin and afghanistan
And what's wrong with Mongolia? They somehow manage to be surprisingly completely invisible 😄
no one denies communist governments can build things, by the way
when you have millions of slaves it's hard to not build anything
But their capitalist system didn't end slavery. People slave away for peanuts for oligarchs and corrupt bureaucrats with zero chance of ever climbing out of that swamp. For a lot of them, the war with Russia actually made their dream of getting the hell out of Ukraine come true.
what you're describing is socialism
as I said, it's a mixed economy
Don't substitute concepts. I described capitalism specifically. And in the modern world, capitalism can exist only when it is backed by the strongest military, capable of destabilizing the situation in any oil-rich country.
Iran and Venezuela are the next candidates to feed the AI bubble.
ok since you've defined your terms like that then yes, I agree "capitalism" is bad
still a little better than full socialism
but of course laissez faire voluntarism is the ideal
The fact that communism turned Ukraine into an energy-developed state does not negate the existence of regions where communism did nothing. Yes, they received benefits from communism, but the entire Soviet "machine" was working for those benefits. In other words, it is probably wrong to expect capitalist Ukraine to do what the Soviet Union did, and what Ukraine itself did as part of that union. But honestly, the scale of Ukraine's decline after the Soviet period is striking. This is a rare case where the showcase of capitalism looks worse.
if you call millions of dead people by hunger a benefit
This famine was not only the result of mistakes by the Soviet leadership, but also, more broadly, a consequence of the civil war and drought. Ukrainian propaganda, of course, calls it a genocide, but in reality, everyone was dying from hunger there, regardless of nationality. Furthermore, it should be remembered that, historically, very soon after the Civil War, the Second World War began. The country had no time to recover, and nevertheless, Ukraine became literally a leading republic of the Union. You could boldly take Ukraine of that period and compare it with any "capitalist" Western European state, and Ukraine was no worse.
Yes, Ukrainian stores of that time, by today's standards, would have seemed overly eco-friendly — communism could not provide a wide range of consumer goods. In the best years, if a single product was available in two or three variations, it was considered good. But on a larger scale, the projects that Ukraine implemented under communism still look unique and ambitious even today. Some achievements were unmatched anywhere in the world. And, of course, capitalist Ukraine is not even capable of building a public restroom. Building a hydroelectric power station is simply impossible for them. They couldn't even complete the Soviet-era projects, and this was long before Russia began to destabilize their country.
Nuclear was literally stolen tech
all tech is stolen, this is irrelevant
also a society can be very prosperous without any nuclear tech
Not really. There's a difference between observing and building on the work of others and spies stealing the entire project and handing it to the Soviet Union.
The Soviets were pioneers in the space race, but it doesn't really conform to his communal ideals since it was built on intense internal competition