What happens if we say the n word on nostr?
Discussion
You can say Nostr all day.
From what I've observed thus far, if you start spreading any kind of negativity on Nostr, most people will just ignore/block you until you go away. A handful might call you out on your bullshit directly for the whole world to see. This community seems to be very tolerant of different opinions while being very intolerant of bullshit.
"negativity"
"bullshit"
Lots to unpack here.
Reminds me of this exchange from the other day.
The irony is that many of those ppl deliberately use crass language to filter ppl like you out. They think youāre āeasily offendedā and need āthicker skinā.
Also, itās crazy someone expects unpleasant ideas to just be filtered by default.
The idea that anyone can say anything is going to terrify a lot of people.
It's only a matter of time before Nostr gets labeled as a haven of "alt-right hate speech".
By the media? Itās too obscure, the fediverse is larger and much more āhatefulā and itās not even on their radar.
Obscure things get hit too. But who cares if the media says that? There will still be a community.
Hopefully community dissent controls those who would abuse the right to say anything. You have always been able to say anything in a small community, and that community can shun or eventually banish you for doing so!
So you think acceptable speech should be determined by consensus?
We need a constitution for what is and isnāt acceptable for a core audience.
It shouldnāt be decided by consensus, the mob is fickle and changes too easily.
However, a foundation for the basis of acceptable speech should be decided sooner rather than later.
Otherwise this doesnāt scale.
Isnāt it the case that consensus is the only solution that does scale and maintain core belief fluidity?
Absolutely not.
The consensus is mob rule without a rock solid moral foundation which governs the consensus.
Oh morality! The consensus governs the moral foundation. Iām afraid weāll just have to agree to disagree. My spider sense is picking up deity based absolute morality vibesā¦.
"Acceptable speech" implies unacceptable speech. I won't go down that road. Nostr is powerful exactly because it's uncensorable.
There šÆ is unacceptable speech for the vast majority of people.
Just because you choose to not engage, doesnāt mean this isnāt a conversation that needs to be had.
There will always be people who think and say things that you find disagreeable, but silencing them is not a morally just solution.
It is better for hate speech to be exposed and ridiculed than hidden from view.
Shine a light on it and let it be exposed for the ignorant
Sure, In theory. Unfortunately everyone will spend their time silencing the tiny fraction of hateful people and not on productive discussion. Then people will leave to where they can have productive discussion.
Hereās the great part, If you want to see that on Nostr, you can. It doesnāt get blocked by some Oligarchs in the sky.
The vast majority of people do have a need for āacceptable use.ā
We need a constitution for that acceptable use.
Nostr is not collectivism. It is anarchy. There will be no set of rules. There is however a free market for relays and clients that all serve a different experience. Everyone has the freedom to speak, and everyone has the freedom to choose what they pay attention to.
Right, exactly.
And there needs to be a space for the 90% core users who donāt want hate speech, porn, child porn, or violence in their feed.
That doesn't require a constitution, charter, or any set of rules at all.
I think it does, though. Not for Nostr broadly, but for the client/node operator. Pretending there's no service operators and no terms is a lie.
Relay operators can and will offer filtering, algorithms and safe places for the 90% who desire protection and willingly offer themselves up to some authority, for it.
Nostr as a protocol can't require more of them than that.
Iām wondering what thatās going to look like. Will most ppl actually go for that? Whatās even the point of decentralisation then?
The point of decentralization is having options. There is no one way to use Nostr. There are already hundreds of relays to choose from. According to nostr.watch there's 427 relays online right now.
Yup. If an agreement on etiquette is required for nostr to work, then it's already failed.
Those who think everyone is forced to listen to them on a voluntary platform are going to be disappointed, but they aren't silenced. They can always run their own relay and anyone who cares to listen to them can find their notes.
It's still early though, and censorship resistance can fail. If someone is banned by most common relays right now, it's very difficult for anyone to find them and view notes from their private relay. NIP-65 proposes a solution to this, but doesn't seem to get much attention from client devs.
There's a huge difference between being ignored, and being deplatformed. From what I've observed thus far, offensive behavior on Nostr mostly just gets ignored and the bad actors eventually give up and move on.
It's all incentives.
You can be as big of an asshole as you want to be, but that might incentivize people to stop listening to you. If you feel like your achieving whatever it is you want to achieve, then great, keep on it. Otherwise you might need to change your approach. Incentives will take care of the social etiquette in a way where no one person or group has control.
It's not that it's required. It just kind of is. There's always an agreement in etiquette between people in a social scenario. A client or relay has some terms, it's just the nature of existing. It has an operator who has a mind and so has an opinion and so has an ideology about what crosses that line.
It's not required, but we can't change what social animals we are.
The point is the voice canāt be completely silenced, it will always be accessible.
If relays started to ban anti-lockdown voices it would be easy to switch to relays that allowed them.
If people want to find relays with total anarchy, theyāll be able to find them.
šÆ
The inability for the vast majority of people on here to think broadly is shocking to me.
Though, I guess thatās why theyāre the first to look for a new home.
It šÆ does.
Who determines what is hate speech? And what do you mean by violence?
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
WORDS ARE NOT VIOLENCE.
Do you want your feed filled with Faces of Death videos? Do you want your feed filled with violent threats against you or others?
Thatās violence.
Set up a relay, write in the rules that it's Family Friendly, blacklist any npubs that break the rules, hey presto, your space that meets your rules.
I run nostr.naut.social as an "unmoderated" relay, but if people wanted to pay a buck a month for a team of moderators monitoring Global (that relay only) 24 hours a day in real time, and nuking bad notes/npubs back of the envelope....
7 times 24 is 168 hours at say 50 bucks an hour (for all in costs), call it 200 hours at 50 an hour, assume most people obey the rules, 10,000 people at a buck a month is breakeven.
If you are tapped into such a group (churches?) you have your own safe space. Meanwhile over on the other relay, the MAGA, an in that other corner, Drag Queens.
So make that space for yourself. Pretty simple actually.
Unless theyāre banned by a relay janny for saying something verboten. Which shouldnāt be a thing btw, but it will be.
It will be, but there will always be relays running that relay everything. It just depends on what relays you decide to connect to.
I don't intend to ever implement any sort of filters on my relay. It's going to be a free speech relay forever.
Thatās actually the real benefit of crypto ppl being here, since they tend to be on the libertarian side. Otherwise it would devolve into twitter 2.0.
Yes most Nostr users right now are free speech absolutists and that gives me hope.
Every day lately I encounter somebody on here who just can't wrap their head around the concept however. They're so aghast at the idea that anybody can say anything on here.
Iām not aghast at it, itās important and needed. It doesnāt mean that extreme views should consistently be level with general society or have the same visibility.
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Ok? Shout that as loud as you want and as often as you want.
90%+ of users will not want that on their timeline, and will actively avoid it.
It creates mayhem and destroys civil conversation.
Extreme views? Youād be surprised by how many ppl hold opinions you canāt discuss in polite society. Thatās why the internet should have a higher standard of free speech.
Cool.
Letās define extreme views in a constitutional sense so that the broadest moral view is codified as acceptable, but polite society is able to coalesce and not be shouted down by a vocal and obnoxious minority.
The majority from what era? The Puritans? The Catholic Church? The Nazis? The Mongols? I think you want a nice tidy answer, but history has shown that no such thing exists for humanity, and given our nature itās unlikely there ever will be such a solution. The Supreme Court exists solely to protect the fundamental rights of the āvocal and obnoxious minorityā from the fascist tendencies of the majority.
Nostr, by design, means you can't even have a concensus.
People who piss people off, get muted. People who piss relay operators off, get barred from that relay.
THIS is why most relays will have house rules, and "communities" will grow up using the relays whose house rules they like.
Nostr is global already. Is anyone in this conversation planning to pay any attention to what China or Iran or Russia think is, or is not, accapetable?
Generally, yes. I also think that tolerance and respect for differing views is important. In past tribal communities function and utility played a part; the blacksmith might be uncouth, but you need his skills so you tolerate his rants to some degree. Tolerance is more of a discipline in modern times.
