Replying to ede3d957...

what you described as built on BTC is either redundant compared to Monero but with less privacy like Liquid or CoinJoins or attackable like LN or coin agnostic like nostr or BTCpayserver, SeedSigner, bisq,....
Avatar
Bitinel 2y ago

"liquid = redundant and LN = attackable"

can I ask you, is your problem with current iterations of those, what they will realistically be, or is your problem with non-layer-one solutions in general?

2nd point: "coin agnostic" yes those could be built on another coin, but is that fact that everyone is choosing to build on bitcoin, irrelevant, or at least dismissed by "it's coin agnostic"?

Don't you think it's worth analysing why it's all being built on bitcoin? how long ago has Haveno been designed for? has it gone off the ground? or is everyone on Bisq? see it's not that simple as saying something is coin agnostic

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

ed
ede3d957... 2y ago

In a world where Monero exists there is no need for a sub par federated chain like Liquid.

LN has a couple of attack vectors and a severe one has only been revealed yesterday. It's privacy is very limited in comparison to Monero. I use LN myself, but I will never entrust it with serious sums >$100.

Plenty of services were built by Bitcoiners and later opened to other chains. The same is happening with Monero btw, where Cake and Stake started as Monero only to later open for more customer choice.

Haveno is indeed a project many are wating for for a long time (1 year since ETA). But in the meanwhile bisq does a perfect job and I'd highly recommende it to everybody.

ed
ede3d957... 2y ago

I don't have a problem with layer 2 or 3 as long as risks and trade-offa are well communicated. For a long time I criticised the attitude of many that layer 2 will savely scale us or bring us privacy or tokens or sidechains. It's simply not true today and it was not true almost a decade ago.

There are trade offs and I am off the opinion that a base layer needs to perfect one thing and excel at it rather than trying to be everything for everybody.

That's why Iove Monero. It does one thing perfect and improved on some of the things Bitcoin could have done better like a security budget for mining (tail emission is not about not having a fixed number of coins, but about known economic assumptions meaning fee markets are not a proven concept one should rely on for all ones networth).

ed
ede3d957... 2y ago

*layer 2/3 without trade offs and downsides which can come in various forms

Avatar
Bitinel 2y ago

I'm glad you use lightning. I agree securety needs working on. there are solutions now where the signing device/keys are separate from the node. I agree it's not perfect yet, but it's being worked on.

yes Monero exists, but you still do need layers like lightning and liquid. I'm not convinced Monero alone could deliver the scale that Bitcoin plus lightning/liquid do deliver.

I think it's been very long since Haveno started. 2020 I think, and still it's not up and running (as far as i know). My point is that it's simplistic to say "all these things being built by and for Bitcoin can simply be adopted by other protocol coins." . It matters that they are being built with bitcoin only in mind. no need to have security trade-offs to support multiple coins. On the other hand, enhancements tested in Litecoin (taproot/segwit or whichever it was) can then be implemented in bitcoin with enough testing. bitcoin is in no rush to innovate at the base layer, and that's a feature not a bug.

anyways, I have much love for Monero and privacy! you'll see my original post was promoting privacy by default!

Avatar
Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Well for starters.... liquid doesn't hide sender or receiver, IP is visible by default, has a microscopic anon set, and is a PERMISSIONED NETWORK

Point is that you are acting like those things are full Monero replacement when they are clearly not. We're not even touching on Monero's massive network effect vs those those things.

As far as Lightnings being "attackable"...a long time dev just recently quit in part because of critical security issues that are unresolvable without base layer changes:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-October/004154.html

The largest trading pair on Bisq is Monero. Even larger than any fiat.