The average user should stay away from receiving zaps if it can only be done with a custodial bank account. It permanently distorts their perception of what bitcoin is.
Cool web3/metaverse/whatever gimmicks don't make it ok to use shitcoins. That's just what custodial bitcoin is, a shitcoin.
Terrible take. But you do you.
If it's terrible tell me why custodial sats are better than your average shitcoin. Why is it ok to use a shitty centralized service for zaps you don't applu the same ethical tolerance towards other web3 crapware?
Because most people are not going to spend $400 + on hardware or pay $8.00 a month to earn 10,000 sats per month in zaps.
Wallet of Satoshi works, we just need to tell people any bitcoin they keep on it is not their bitcoin.
Most shitcoins also 'work'. Does that make it ok to promote their usage?
Bitcoin is absolute mathmatical scarcity. Shitcoins can't rediscover that. That's why they don't work.
This is about trade offs, not purity tests.
WOS does not solve the double spending problem.
I think this is okay if you're talking about zapping and recieving 100k sats a month.
If you need more than that, use Phoenix and transfer your non-custodial sats every month.
I've also used custodial lightning addresses. Mine only worked about half the time. I've also lost at least a million sats breaking various nodes over the years. I also can no longer withdraw the sats I earned on yalls.org because of it.
It is my opinion that you can expect to lose more sats using self-sovereign lightning than by keeping small amounts of bitcoin on a custodial lightning service.
That doesn't mean I think you should use shitcoins or give your life savings to blackrock ir FTX.
Custodial bitcoin is a shitcoin. So is L-BTC. So is W-BTC. Is it ok to use those for small amounts?
Again, it's all about tradeoffs, not ad hominum attacks. I don't know what W-BTC is, but I look at Liquid BTC the same way. Actually, I believe liquid BTC has better trade-offs than Wallet of Satoshi.
What do you think about Fedimints? Are those shitcoins too because they are non-custodial?
What ad hominem?
All the above are paper bitcoin withtrusted thirdparties. Custodial tradeoffs don't make sense to me because they destroy the very purpose of what bitcoin is. If yoi don't take self custody, then it has no advantage to other forms of money other than it is more inneficient.
If these third parties don't make sense for small transactions, what does?
Should everyone use a 3-of-5 multisig for a 10,000 sat UTXO?
I don't claim to have all the answers. I just don't compromise with shitty ones.
I think the Uncle Jim model, while not perfect (nothing is perfect) is better than Wallet of Satoshi.
To be fair, fedimints are kind of a shitcoin, but with decent trade-offs that hopefully keep them honest.
I don’t agree. That strikes me like saying the average user should stay away from Bitcoin if they need to buy it on an exchange.
Buy Bitcoin. Learn self custody. Then self-custody the sats you have, regardless of how you acquired them.
This will be enough to onboard people and make them bitcoiners. It worked for most of us.
>it worked for most of us
False. Most people that ever bought bitcoin on exchanges are not bitcoiners today. Most did not understood its value and sold when appropriate.
It's delusional to think that onboarding people thorough gated regulated exchanges and custodial banks is going to make them appreciate the value of freedom money.
“It worked for most of us”
I should have qualified that, by saying “it worked for most of us who are here now, as bitcoiners.”
It’s a good point/open question whether most people who purchase on an exchange ever take self custody. Presumably there is some analytic function that could get a number, but I don’t know.
But I’d argue, anecdotally, that numerous nostr users - who discovered Bitcoin here - started with WoS and have been learning about Bitcoin and self custody over the past few months. Learning how to take care of the stack that they’re building (and KYC-free, as a bonus).
You're literally describing Survival Bias: "we went through that and survived, so this must be a good idea!"
😂 Got me with that argument
I think there’s an organic and “convenient” way to onboard plenty of new bitcoiners and get them into self-custody, at scale. Realistically, we won’t onboard the world in our lifetime if we don’t use stepping stones. Even better to build stepping stones that improve custody, privacy, etc etc.
But voices like yours will remain important, especially in this context. If it makes a newbie say “wait wtf is my Bitcoin safe?”, that’s a very important question for each of us to ask
It’s early days. Willing to bet most went through the centralised route to acquire bitcoin. But it does largely depend on the individual and what they do/learn from then on. What do you propose is the best way to onboard users to make them appreciate the value of freedom money?
It's best to transmit your leanerd experiences and make them avoid the same mistakes: shitcoins, exchanges, kyc, defi, yield, custodial LN, etc.
I know we agree that custodial solutions are not solutions.
Even with the best of intentions, these services may inadvertently become rug-pulls of a sort if they are forced to implement KYC.
That said, I am comfortable keeping a few thousand sats on WoS, purely for zapping others, if it sparks their curiosity and excitement about Bitcoin, Lightning, and freedom tech.
I’d rather hold the door open to have the conversation, offer the guidance, and help them do it right. Again and again, I would choose that.
I do recall hearing that some self-custodial LN services are working on a solution for static Lightning addresses. Hopefully it won’t be long until this debate fades into irrelevance ⚡️🤙
True. Which is why my experience tells me to use an easy-to-use custodial wallet that works in Nostr for tiny sat tips entirely because it just works…for now. And to never hold a significant amount with the likes of WoS etc. Significant bitcoin stacking is a whole different ball park and that indeed needs more transmission of learned experiences.
We need to focus on educating them.
Satoshi Nakamoto left us with precious little advice, but even his advice suggests practicality on this, screen shot of his post from 2010:
Ok here goes:
1.think of your lightning wallet as your “bill fold” you carry only a small amount of cash(cash for the weekend, or night out), DON’T KEEP MUCH HERE, like $100 -$200 just like a bill fold, rug pull won’t affect much.
2. Think of your “software” self-custody wallet as your checking account. This could be something like “brave wallet” or coinbase wallet. But must be self custody. Keep a month or so salary here.
3.think of your hardware/cold storage as your savings account. This is your NEST EGG.
If you think that way, fees/convenience dominate the lightning wallet choice. And just like loosing your billfold (it sucks) but won’t affect your destiny.
Features/convenience dominate the “software” wallet. This wallet is self custody and keeps a month or so of working cash. Typically hooked up to an exchange for moving coin in and out, and sending to your LN wallet.
security dominates the cold storage wallet decision (e.g. multi-sig air-gap multi-vender etc…
