Nostr Web Client

I know you are fostering a community that expresses value in zaps. (Which is good for Nostr) it's just that you are one of the few that states this explicitly. Which comes off in ways that gets dicey. I like your memes, I zap you, I leave gif reacts and comment at times. All seem valuable in their own way and Nostr is better with you here.

corndalorian 8mo ago

This reply is more thoughtful and I appreciate the words of kindness. Some of your points are spot on, but some are still off, however.

> Fostering a community that expresses value in zaps: Absolutely. Zaps are revolutionary. Anyone ignoring them is a fool.

> Talking about zaps explicitly comes off as dicey: That’s a you problem, not a me problem. Your feelings and misinterpretations are not my responsibility. Monetizing digital content is a multi billion dollar industry, and nostr + bitcoin removes nearly all barriers imposed by centralized systems. Why should we pretend that this space is anything less than revolutionary for creators? Why should I act like zaps don’t exist, or that monetizing digital content isn’t a thing? It obviously is. Anyone offended by this is stupid.

> All forms of engagement seem valuable in their own way: Not likes. They’re worthless. Replies, reposts, zaps, quotes, are all meaningful interactions in their own way, and I didn’t discourage them in this meme, nor have I ever discouraged them that I am aware of. Likes, however, provide zero benefit/value to creators and ought to have never been added to the protocol.

If you want to show someone posting digital content on nostr that you appreciate their work, a zap is the most potent and “tangible” way of doing so, but of course other interactions have meaning too.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

mrclownworld 8mo ago

The only issue with zaps as a solution to V4V is that each zap has mental friction (Szabo wrote about this)

Recurring financial patronage of artists (think patreon) is the most brilliant I think. A $0.25 recurring monthly support for a creator is not nothing, but that amount is prohibitively small for traditional financial rails

corndalorian 8mo ago

Yea but that’s bullshit and he’s wrong about it.

mrclownworld 8mo ago

There’s mental friction in deciding every time if I’m going to zap you 10 sats or 58 or 100 or 1000 and what does each one actually communicate

If I decide once that supporting an artist to keep going is worth $1 per month and then the next time I think about it is when I go to cancel monthly subscriptions, we’ve reduced friction

I can say I am pretty confident you, for example, would get more of my sats with a monthly thing than per post. I may be wrong but I would feel peace of mind knowing you were getting a consistent stream from me and maybe even seeing how much you made monthly to know how close you were to full time meming, etc

Btw I’m not talking about anything paywalled (Szabo’s main criticism)

Xtr3m3hodl 8mo ago

When you say likes are worthless do you mean from a monetary standpoint or from a signal standpoint? Because likes also act as some sorts of signal on the post in question.

A post with no interaction and a post with likes cant be compared. Sure it might be the least useful from the other options you raised. But does that make it worthless?

corndalorian 8mo ago

Totally worthless. Useless. Waste of screen space and server resources. They need to be eradicated from the protocol. Does that make it clear?

Sacred Peak 8mo ago

- online community is an illusion, maybe a delusion in some cases

- human interaction online is unreal because it is not face to face and therefore not intimate

- community as it is online is a synonym for tribalism

get off your phone, computer and be in the world

corndalorian 8mo ago

Gfy

JackTheMimic 8mo ago

So, if I say "Hey, I made art, pay me money if you like it." It's not that you're wrong, it's that you come off as desperate. You don't need to tell people to pay you if they want to do it.

I don't personally care if you come off as desperate, I was just acknowledging how that sounds.

As far as "likes" go reactions are a way of gauging what the passive observer feels when seeing your post. Not useless, but simple information. It isn't a substitute for a zap or quote but I don't think it claimed to be.

Anyway, hopefully this was just as nuanced and thoughtful.

corndalorian 8mo ago

Disagree on likes, but I’m not expecting to change your mind on that.

For your other points, you are still reading into my intentions more than you should. Not my problem. You think I’m “desperate” as if I’m begging for zaps. I’m making memes and giving commentary on the topic of zaps. I’ll continue doing so because it’s an important topic. I don’t care that you and some others misinterpret and put words in my mouth.

And yes, if you make art and decided to sell it and ask for money, that is actually perfectly normal. If you decide instead to post it online in a value4value approach, then yes you absolutely should encourage people to zap/tip you if they like it. Why wouldn’t you? Why would you pretend that you are not interested in monetizing your art if you actually are? That is inauthentic and pathetic. Be proud enough of what you create to expect value in return for it.

RedTailHawk 8mo ago

You're correct. Likes are not "worthless".

Corndalorian needs to think about this with a mathematical proof level of rigor. Anything less is intellectual dishonest and posturing for the sake of virtue signaling to peers.

Likes have value. It can be used to signal that content has been witnessed or it can be used to signal that an incoming reply is non-adversarial.

RedTailHawk 8mo ago

I liked your post in advance of replying as a way of demonstrating that I am replying in a non-adversarial way.

That's the use for likes on NOSTR.

Not all posts are zap worthy.

Text based communication has a tendency to fall short of its intended outcome on a pretty regular basis from what I've seen. People communicate poorly often. Leading a reply with a like is a way of mitigating misinterpretation of ambiguously worded replies in the mind of the person to whom the reply is directed.

RedTailHawk 8mo ago

Likes are also a way of indicating to a person that their content has been seen. People appreciate knowing they've been seen. If you don't believe me, ghost everyone in your life and see how that goes.

corndalorian 8mo ago

I don’t care that you’ve “seen” my content if that’s the extent of your interaction with it/me. It’s not merely about zaps, but more broadly about meaningful interactions. Likes literally have no meaning here. They are a relic of ad-driven algorithmic social media platforms. Reply and tell me what you thought of a piece of content, positive or negative, share/repost it if it resonates that much, zap it if you’re the zapping type, but ffs don’t click the like button. I don’t see them anyway. I hide them from my UI as much as possible. They’re worthless.

RedTailHawk 8mo ago

1. You wouldn't be posting if you weren't interested in having people see your content. That's a non-starter. Totally illogical. I reject that premise completely.

2. You are not the only person who assigns value to things. You phrase things as though your subjective valuation of likes is objectively the case.

"All forms of engagement seem valuable in their own way: Not likes. They’re worthless. ... Likes, however, provide zero benefit/value to creators and ought to have never been added to the protocol.

Others see value in likes but you don't. I'm absolutely certain that you see value in things that others do not. Value is subjective to some extent and NOSTR isn't all about you.

This is a dumb hill to die on.

corndalorian 8mo ago

I reject your rejection. Also, cool story bro. Have a good day.

RedTailHawk 8mo ago

At least you know you’re just a whiny narcissist now. You can ignore reality but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

It ain’t all about you.

corndalorian 8mo ago

1) What?

I’m muting you now dude. Go bother someone else.

e1d7688b... 8mo ago

Idk. I think likes still provide a function. Majority of posts are not worth zaps. This is what it will trend towards. The honeymoon phase of overzapping because it's just so cool technology wise will end and the volume of zaps will decrease and maybe amount per zap increase. The like function for me is what I use when I think a post is decent but simply not worth a zap. That's just how I do it. Cool thing here is that everyone has their own way of interacting with all this. Btw, I also can see the other side where likes could potentially be done away with completely and you either found enough value in the content to zap, or you didn't. That's a totally possible outcome I guess. But I don't necessarily think that having an extra function hurts anything as opposed to removing something taking away something. And the proof is in the pudding because the like button is still used quite a lot.

corndalorian 8mo ago

People use likes, but they provide no value to the recipient. I already use nostr without them, and have been doing so for nearly 2 years now. In client apps that offer the option, I even completely remove them from my UI so not only do I never see the like button but I also never see when others like posts. It has made my social media experience so much better. But yes they exist and probably aren’t going away. I do encourage everyone to try nostr for a while without them.