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But it was man who broke the money to begin with. No guarantee man won’t do it with bitcoin.

Not really. Man couldn’t break gold. It was when man created a virtual economy that existed a layer above the physical (paper notes and redemption certs) that were simply vulnerable to the most basic form of lie/fraud. It was simply a technology with no really monetary attributes, it only impersonated real money.

The whole point is to create a digital money that *actually* has monetary attributes inherent to its design. It’s not that man corrupted money, it’s that man created an environment where natural money didn’t exist, and we had to invent it in order to get past a massive flaw that was holding us back from real economic communication to stop the astronomical misallocation caused by the breakdown of value transfer.

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Discussion

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

This is a far more nuanced argument. I like it. It's more in line with what i think Bitcoiners should be saying and claiming.

Bitcoin is the *first* sound money to exist. Even gold was not sound money.

People like Matt Kratter remind us of this.

We will hopefully come up with better terms and memes than "sound money" and comparisons with gold, or trying to replicate gold (which has along with silver always been centralized).These fiscally conservative memes carry a ton of baggage, especially in the american context.

Bitcoin is something new, and its long term affects are unknown.

You take the strong position for its net positive affects on everything from housing to, morality, to mental existentialism. I simply take a less strong position, skewed towards a preference for your type of optimism. Call it tempered bitcoin optimism.

Fiat did some good things, it did a lot of bad things. The american space program relied on fiat debt and credit promises. So did vietnam.

Bitcoin doing better than fiat for civilization, that is: your strong case for bitcoin optimism, remains to be proven.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Gold is broken, the market is rigged by futures contracts.

Same could be possible to Bitcoin.

Purple Horse 2y ago

True, but when the supply gets to zero, things get interesting…

Nobody knows the real supply of gold.

It will be interesting to see this play out

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Same could be said about bitcoin if in the future mining becomes centralised to small number peole/corporations. They could collude together to increase the supply.

Its very unlikely but it’s possible.

Guy Swann 2y ago

Miners can’t increase the supply. It would be if nodes/validators are highly centralized.

The economic majority would be who determined the rules, even if 95% of the miners switched to a shitcoin fork with increased supply. If none of the nodes did, they’d have zero market to sell to, and all those validators would now have a shitcoin to dump on the market for more BTC. The price would plummet in their fork, made even worse because their blocks are coming in faster, while BTC just sits and waits with a billion person network to sell to.

Mining centralization is a problem, but it isn’t because they can just randomly change the consensus rules.

Ricardo Perez 2y ago

Thank you nostr:npub1fl7pr0azlpgk469u034lsgn46dvwguz9g339p03dpetp9cs5pq5qxzeknp , nostr:npub1kzu0hk2h3tpru7pdj73jk7e6wtx6qas8vy6eh4jkv82zw545py9qu9rf4g for an amazing thread! Learning much! And you did it, when there was disagreement, without insulting each other!🔥✝️🙏😎

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Nostr is the place for free discussion. You can’t really discuss anything on other socials due to the character limit on texts.

nobody 2y ago

Sir, please this is a Wendy’s.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Wendy’s? Huh?

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

It's a meme meant to say you're overhyped or over reacting about something in the wrong context, like screaming about mature bond yields in a Wendy's.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

No idea what you mean but okay lol

nobody 2y ago

Sir, please. Just place your order. There is a line forming.

BOL 2y ago

Getting in the queue of this tasty conversation ... I don't think anybody has mentioned the demographic cliff that is forming in most parts of the world...

All the more reason to expound upon the benefits of gradually demonetizing housing by pointing folks to bitcoin (though I think places like Canada and Australia could be lost to a gradual process at this point)

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yeh look at Japan. They been basically in a depression for the last 30 years because of poor demographics. You now have millions of Japanese graduates unemployed living with their parents. A trend that is growing in the west.

BOL 2y ago

Japan, definitely a dark horse to follow El Sal next

BOL 2y ago

Countries that can demonetize housing can potentially attract new immigrants, countries that won't demonetize housing will lose citizens--some long-term game theory here

OgFOMK ArTS 2y ago

Imagine thinking and central planning everything except building, clean water and healthy food production and exchange them by the free market. No wonder you can't purchase your cigarettes, alcohol and shelter. You have zero skills in surviving life.

nobody 2y ago

A lot of planning went into how best to use Japan and ultimately keep them down following WW2. It’s a feature, not a bug.

Japan and the “carry trade” is just one example.

nobody 2y ago

You can’t look at what another country is doing without taking into account who owns the worlds reserve currency.

The US hands are very dirty when it comes to the success/failure of foreign countries.

El Salvador is also another great example. All planned prior to their current breakaway society.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

It’s very unlikely as I have said. But there is tiny probability it could happen.

Just like there is tiny probability space agencies will mine asteroids for Gold.

But still that argument is used to say gold is not scarce as bitcoin.

Cyber Seagull 2y ago

Same with silver and Nickel.

Bitcoin can be protected from this through education and responsibility. But it's not guranteed. Just look at how much money and man hours was wasted on shitcoins and NFT's.

Bitcoin is not just pure market signal, it reflects the soul.

Steven Day 2y ago

Gold is broken because most of it is in a basement in Manhattan with paper claims.

You and I can’t go and count what’s there and around the world. It’s rife for abuse.

Bitcoin can and has been manipulated in price especially because a smaller market cap means a massive sell can hit the market harder than a much larger asset.

We can account for every single coin and all the clowns who tried to paper Bitcoin more than they have blew themselves up.

That said, there are risks seen and unseen and I never underestimate the powers that be.