Nostr Web Client

I don't understand. Hasn't the argument for these classifications always been that they are optional to enforce? I don't see why having common language to describe the problem is an issue. Relay operators are always free to use or ignore them.

Blake 2y ago

Well that’s the key problem. The idea itself is actually fine. It’s some arbitrary list of tags for content.

It has three key problems are all are execution failures.

1. This has never worked - ever - and people will never be consistent or accurate when self-tagging. Even porn websites don’t have accurate tags.

2. Community tagging is an unsolved problem just the same. What if I DDOS all your content as illegal? It can be abused easily.

3. Let’s say we have a perfectly tagged system. Great. Now laws pass to make relays ban/delete certain tagged content. Great. No we lose all old content and no new content is tagged correctly in protest and the whole system dies anyway.

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Discussion

nickmonad 2y ago

With regards to incorrect self-tagging, yeah that sucks. Some people will get that wrong. I don't think removing all options for self-tagging is a good idea though. And that's where a common language goes a long way to helping relays and clients know what they are dealing with.

As for gaming the reporting, that will always be a risk, for sure. But it's not intractable. Reputation goes a long way, operators and moderators can be weary of reports from pub keys that have no history on their relay, etc. Tooling is key here.

When you say "you can even moderate, and censor your community with your own rules" and then say "it doesn't belong [...] arbitrary moderators making decisions", how are you reconciling those two ideas?

Blake 2y ago

For one, AI can do the classification in the future - even client side. It’s likely a bad thing for censorship resistance, but alas you can’t un-invent technology.

Two, agreed. It’s a developing area. It impacts a lot of things. But just as people infiltrate LinkedIn and friend all your colleagues to look legit, the same will happen on decentralised networks. Network Trust schemes at scale are weirdly more susceptible to imposters.

Three, I’m comparing how the protocol level should be designed for censorship resistance in all aspects. It’s literally why Nostr exists. What people can censor is their own private/community relays - set one up, host whatever content you like, allow who ever you give permission to, ban people - but that doesn’t impact the Nostr Protocol.

Ideas are great - but worthless without being executed in a way that’s possible (it can’t be a fake solution that is vapourware), and actually consider and address how they will fail or their side effects.

nickmonad 2y ago

I'll always agree execution matters more than the idea. No arguments there. I think we also agree that at the end of the day, the relay operator (and client to some extent) can always accept or deny whatever content they choose.

I think what I'm trying to get at is: classification does not mean censorship. None of the NIPs related to reporting (self or otherwise) suggest relays or clients should act one way or the other. So that's why I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Blake 2y ago

Did you know that TikTok and Facebook and all those companies literally train their (mostly offshore) moderators and staff - with a classification list of content to target? Often people who don’t speak the language of the source content are ‘moderating’ it.

It’s the first step toward “regulation” made easy. For censorship resistance properties, it should be made impossible or extremely costly.

There is literally a context code proposed for “Political Protest”. Most countries have biased media, but many have extremely government controlled media. Nostr is a tool to allow real humans, and not ministry of truth, to communicate freely. The number of political elections that have media censorship and worse…

The current proposed NIP is actually related to a business they are starting. It has little to do with the wider community benefiting from it - it’s how they seek to make money and moderate their business.

I’m just glad it won’t work anyway. People just need to be aware powers without the same freedom of communication mindset will at some point attempt to try to censor Nostr.