> Precisely, yes. It's just another blockchain. Blockchain decentralization doesn't manifest in and of itself and every attempt other than Bitcoin are looking like failure so I don't see why it would be different here.
With validity proofs it's trustless. You're only giving up censorship resistance (up to L2 consensus), but gaining: scale (like lightning) and functionality. In fact, the latter also gives more security because you can do DeFi and self-custodial applications.
> Too expensive
It's less expensive than Bitcoin today. Bitcoin stores all tx on chain. This will store state diffs in the worst case which is much cheaper.
> That's an option but I'm not sure how it would play out in practice. Overall it just seems overarchitectured. Another example is I have no reason to believe at the moment that fraud proof economic games are actually sustainable. They seem quite capital inefficient and I've read pretty serious concerns around the long term game theory.
Validium prevents escape hatches, but it's not related to fraud proofs. Unlike fraud proofs, validiums make it imposible for operators to steal funds.
There is also the option of self-DA like Adamantium (it needs users to be live, but IMO, it should still be strictly better than Lightning).
>With validity proofs it's trustless. You're only giving up censorship resistance (up to L2 consensus), but gaining: scale (like lightning) and functionality. In fact, the latter also gives more security because you can do DeFi and self-custodial applications.
I was referring to sequencing layers. Rollups do not scale like Lightning in any way. They involve global state and data that has to be made available to users.
Using Bitcoin as a DA will make tx onchain strictly more expensive than on Bitcoin today the moment any sort of scale usage shows up.
All of the gadgets you refer to are underexplored and add new layers of complexity that I don't think are fully appreciate because they've never been tested in real world environment.
What we know of rollups is that they are permissioned, likely very expensive to operate and consolidate into few service providers that can capture network effect. (observations from ETH)
> Using Bitcoin as a DA will make tx onchain strictly more expensive than on Bitcoin today the moment any sort of scale usage shows up.
Yes but in this scenario you assume that most of the traffic will still happen on L1 directly ? Assuming most of the traffic move to L2s then it's not the case.
> All of the gadgets you refer to are underexplored and add new layers of complexity that I don't think are fully appreciate because they've never been tested in real world environment.
Fair enough.
> What we know of rollups is that they are permissioned, likely very expensive to operate and consolidate into few service providers that can capture network effect. (observations from ETH).
Yes this is the current state of affairs today, I wont deny it. Everything is about the credibility of the path to decentralisation and to fix those aspects.
>Yes but in this scenario you assume that most of the traffic will still happen on L1 directly ? Assuming most of the traffic move to L2s then it's not the case.
Blocks on L1 will be made full regardless, this will increase on-chain costs which are directly tied to the cost of transacting on the rollup. Bitcoin"s DA is extremely scarce and we know this creates a ceiling for rollups.
AFAIK it's well understood that rollups actually do a poor job of actually scaling though they have undeniable utility advancements.
> AFAIK it's well understood that rollups actually do a poor job of actually scaling though they have undeniable utility advancements.
What ? ZK rollups using state diffs (as opposed to sending compressed tx data) scale extremely well! It's the opposite, the more traffic you have on them the more efficient they are.
If you want trustless ZK rollup you must use DA on Bitcoin.
This does not scale by default. You still need non-witness data therefore you only get 5-10x increase in the throughput depending on who you ask.
sorry missed zeros here say 30-50x.
still not a lot
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