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The vast majority of people don’t care. I wouldn’t dismiss the depth of the argument as the ramblings of an online fringe minority. What ties people to one nation-state is becoming ideological more than ethnic, physical, financial, etc.

Mike Brock 2y ago

I would dismiss it. I use to be part of this movement. It's a hopelessly depoliticized ideology that believes it's going to inherit the world, because they reckon based on their a priori axiomatic reasoning that the nation state's contradictions will lead to a certain collapse.

Complex adaptive systems exist and persist and thrive in spite of contradictions. Even your body is filled with contradictions. The simple act of digesting food introduces poisons into your blood stream, as byproducts of metabolic processes. Your body has to maintain negative feedback loops, to compensate for these shocks and filter them out. Contradictions are NOT fatal to the stability of complex systems. They actually can't exist without contradiction because of thermodynamics.

It's all utopian nonsense.

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The Conscious Contrarian 2y ago

Complex adaptive systems don’t always and forever thrive under contradictions.

A cancer will eventually kill an organism. The same has happened to larger complex adaptive systems over and over again in human history.

Monarchy, or the Catholic church being just two of many good examples. To think that the nation state in its current form is the end state and final equilibrium is just naive.

You don’t have to be an anarcho-capitalist to understand that the next evolution of human organization will look vastly different from the current equilibrium.

And it is also obvious that the separation of money and the state may just play a large part in this evolution.

Mike Brock 2y ago

It's not obvious that we're headed for a post-state future. At all. It's only obvious to people in this conversation who consume a narrow set of political and economic theories. Which are mostly utopian and pseudo-intellectual.

The Conscious Contrarian 2y ago

I’m not saying it’s obvious that this will happen in the near future. But what is obvious is that there a new local energy minimum on the horizon which is capable of unleashing tremendous latent energy once we move in that direction.

Just like the reformation unleashed the latent energy of giving spirituality and agency back into people’s hands. The reformation was not an arbitrary event of chance, it eventually happened because of its more optimal state.

Separation of church and state, once it is available, is a more optimal state just like separation of money and state is more optimal. The separation of money and state can now, for the first time, be delivered in a stable form.

Mike Brock 2y ago

I think your analysis is ridden with category errors, a poor understanding of human nature and group dynamics, information theory, complex systems theory, etc. Your reasoning is essentially completely normative, but you're trying to couch it in terms of equilibria.

The Conscious Contrarian 2y ago

And yet your only counterargument seems to consist of 1) the absurd claim that the late nation state is now forever a stable complex adaptive system 😂 and 2) a word salad of concepts that you yourself seem to know little about and you don’t care to elaborate on what relevance they have to the discussion.

Mike Brock 2y ago

Please enlighten me to these concepts you think I know little about. I'm always open to the possibility I'm wrong.

dario 2y ago

With all due respect, you don’t know that. And can’t possibly know. If you’d like to borrow from biology, in regards to your example, do not forget the powerful and inevitable effects of evolution.

History may not have accessible examples of anarcho-capitalism, however the industrial epoch may be the anomaly here and may not best predict what may occur in the Information Age, when people have more options to leave and defund the nation-state of their birth.

Even in the USA there is a growing immigrant population (economic migrants) which care not about the culture war or the “American dream platitude. Many in the West consider themselves visitors. The fabric is loose.

People flock to where they’re treated best. Only 1% of the population cares about the moral tic for tac between powers

Mike Brock 2y ago

At least historical examples are something! Not just some set of a priori axioms dreamt up in the head of Hitler-sympathezer (Rothbard) and his insane contemporary, Hoppe.

Look, I get it. It feels simple, neat, and self-consistent. A perfect set of rules for humans to live by, maximize freedom and cooperation, and thrive in peace.

The problem is it's no more compatible with human nature than communism. But you all can go on predicting a Book of Revelations-like moment for the nation state and the emergence of sovereign individuals walking around, interacting through pure capitalism. It's a fun story, at least!