I'm not sure what to think of this, but ever since about 2014 the world's "thinking" has bifurcated. We have narrative bifurcation. On many issues there are two camps with extremely different beliefs. Sometimes I take one side or the other, and sometimes I think that the actual truth is a complex mixture and both camps are wrong, and yet most people fall into one of two camps holding views with little nuance which are severely bifurcated from each other. Some examples:

Trump is a criminal and Putin puppet -vs- Trump is being taken out by the system he threatens

Climate change is real and damaging -vs- Climate change isn't happening or is all for the good

Canola and other seed oils are very healthy -vs- Seed oils are toxic and very unhealthy

Plant based diets are very healty -vs- Carnivore diets are the healthiest

Russia is going to invade Europe next -vs- Russia won't go much further and only wants to disable Ukraine

I'm less interested in these particular topics as I am in the general pattern of having two very different sets of beliefs on so many issues.

I don't remember it being like this in the past.

I'm tempted to conjecture that some outside force is trying to divide the West ideologically in order to collapse it, and is taking advantage of our free speech to do it, and is laughing about it over vodka and baijiu.

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🎯 Well said.

divide and conquer.

two party system.

team red vs team blue.

same as red vs blue corner in a boxing ring.

I think the 'us & them' has always been there.

It's the old illusion of separation.

I think this is the result of the internet publishing evolving. In the past you had your news and your experts and you took them at face value. Now it’s really easy to debunk any news source or any expert. Information is readily available in all sorts of formats.

The problem is that people like clean cut answers to everything- it makes things simple. This usually leads to extremes. And when your algo or community enables you to join a small group of extremes, you start thinking that’s the truth. We form bubbles and think we are correct and the other guys are idiots.

It seems to me the truth is always much more complex than people make it out to be. It’s somewhere in between extremes. But not always. Basically you have to look at everything without prior conclusions about another thing, and people seem to have a hard time doing that.

I guess the short answer is: information bubbles. 🫧

πŸ’―

I kind of combined 2 different concepts here into one but they are somewhat separate probably just 2 of 50 other factors.

Basically you have better access to information (probably combined with inability to properly interpret it), and bubbles. But there’s probably way more to this.

Yeah I think that is right. I"m listening to a YouTube lecture for the University of Central Asia on this topic and it is worldwide, and I think they are driving at this same conclusion ... I'll see I am still watching it.

Social media also rewards edgy content with spins. Brevity wins and nuance is lost. You’ve got your clickbait garbage and rushed reporting optimizing for ad views vs accuracy + 100 other things

It might be just a consequence of the fact that we all have billions of sources of information now, and we were always tribal.

And perhaps it isn't a bad thing at all. It is good to have a "control group." If everybody believed the same things, we wouldn't be exploring the edges of human knowledge as well as if we take on hypotheses, even wildly divergent ones, and try them out.

These are just my thoughts. My last sentence in my parent post was just a thought, not a conclusion.

What would that make you want to do, if hypothetically true?

What happened with yourself in 2014.

Because the world is like that for far longer.

State terrorism was always a problem, but 9/11 split reality into conspiracy believers and conspiracy theorists. And from there it started to escalate.

I started watching the news

Oh yeah, two camps never existed before 2014

Yin Yang

Good Evil

Black White

Nazis Allies

All came after 2014 πŸ‘

"i dont want those people in my country, as my neighbors, going to school with my kids" is well entrenched

if this was on purpose, theyve done a bang up job

I think you are on to something, but it’s been happening since long before our time. Have you ever read any Thomas Sowell? He was on to this in the 80s, and traces its origins back centuries:

β€œA Conflict of Visions (1987) represents Sowell’s best effort to put his ideas in dialogue with their opposite. He begins the book by observing a strange fact: people predictably line up on opposite sides of political issues that seemingly have nothing in common. For instance, knowing someone’s position on climate change somehow allows you to predict their views on taxing the rich, gun control, and abortion. It’s tempting to dismiss this as mere political tribalism. But Sowell contends that more is at work: that there are two fundamental ways of thinking about the social world, two sets of basic assumptions about human nature, and two conflicting β€˜visions,’ from which most political disagreements follow. He names these the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision.”

It is the kind of insight that helps to explain the things you are noticing.

Read the rest here:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-nonconformist

A more scholarly take:

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1987/11/cj7n2-17.pdf

1987... well then it is not new, just more obvious to me somehow.

Sowell isn't entirely correct here. Directionally correct though. I don't line up predictably.

That's right, but we're all on a kind of "vision" spectrum. Few of us fall so neatly into any category. And I think he would also acknowledge there are more than two basic visions of reality, in the sense he's using that word. I think what's helpful is that we each tend towards one overall vision and that is much more influential on our political positions than the particular policies in question. As our intellectual landscape gets ever more impoverished we tend to oversimplify into these crude alliances that tend to miss the point of what's really at stake.

Too many people of either (any) political slant decide what is true by making references to these things he talks about. I think we have to find objective truth and accept it regardless of whether we want it to be true or not. Or what our tribe thinks.

I have found Sowell to be a model in this regard.

That said, tribes (banding together with the like minded) do serve a purpose. The real trouble happens when tribes grow far beyond a human scale. Decentralized tribes, localism, and wide distribution of property would be a very effective solvent to the reductive, two party Kabuki dance we are now living through. How to manage that in a society as tech logically advanced as ours? No idea. But if it gets us thinking about our cities and neighborhoods over these vast global agglomerates, only good can come of it.

I have this though this for awhile. It makes too much sense to not be true.

Divide and conquer.