For sure it does. Bitcoin is some kind of captured now. They monitoring every ttansaction very closely, its like a CBDC now. Not much privacy tools for Bitcoin left. So the real P2P cash is Monero now. I say this as Old School Bitcoiner, in since 2013. But the current development is horrible. BTC has lost its narafive from being P2P and switchsd to digital gold which is it now. Price will go up, driven by govs and they watch it more and more as they don't invest billions of fiat shitcoins in it without to know everything about it
Discussion
You haven't understood anything then.
Can you buy a car or a house with Monero? Monero is good for the same as bitcoin without kyc to buy a soda.
Its possible to buy a house or rent a house with Monero, you can buy a car, also possible.
As you wrote all Bitcoiners which KYC'd coins are screwed now.
Monero's circular economy is growing and growing. You can see the acceptance growing on any place where they accept cryptos.
Non-KYC'd Bitcoin are traceable. Here is a big difference between BTC and Monero.
tell me how. step by step.
Learn it. Same with Bitcoin 😉
step 1. https://xmrbazaar.com/
lol
Essentially you swap it to bitcoin on a DEX and then sell the Bitcoin for dollars
Around here in Portugal you find plenty of people using monero. I'd certainly accept it for large transactions.
To be quite frank, wouldn't accept any other crypto right now unless it is stable and private.
I’m not sure if it’s really possible to have significant discrepancies between declared income and observed spending patterns without prompting an audit or investigation. You can buy like an expansive pc with crypto without the RSI noticing it, but buying a €565k house with 3000 XMR you bought in 2015 at ~$0.5 without the need to explain the origin of the funds seems unlikely.
First I wouldn't buy a house for that price, it is just overpriced and not at a place I'd enjoy living. And the second part is that you don't need to declare the real price you pay.
Maybe in your country this would be a problem, around here it isn't. The only sideffect is that legally you have to offer the neighbors the chance of buying a house/land for the public price you are selling.
I live in Portugal too. I see your point, but underdeclaring property prices seems risky. Beyond the tax implications, it could draw BCFT scrutiny, especially for large transactions. Paying a significant amount under the table or using untraceable funds like Monero might raise red flags with notaries or registrars, who are obligated to report anything suspicious. And wouldn’t the IMT and stamp duty still need to align with the official declaration?
Will answer through a different way.
Actually you can, yes, and people have. I know of several examples in my circles. And they're all bitcoiners too.. yet Monero is the tool they use. And no, it's not because they don't want to spend the BTC
.. they sold BTC for XMR on a DEX for the purpose, in other words, using the tools we have available as they're intended.
They all chose #monero for the same reasons I would have:
- No way this tx would work on Lightning (amount too high) in most conditions
- They don't want the seller to identify portions of their transparent BTC stash
But even if they couldn't use XMR, because hypothetically it's heavily criminalized (in most parts of the world, if you don't know, paying cash for a house is totally normal, so paying XMR for a house wouldn't be strange), what, you would take that as victory? Makes no sense.
It's really simple and for a guy who goes by the handle "Cypherpunk", you should get it!
Cypherphunks build and use anonymous systems, because otherwise and inevitably, those systems become tools for mass-surveillance and not tools for liberation.
Look, it's really simple:
Is Bitcoin private? No, you can always see the amounts, source and destination.
Is Bitcoin anonymous? No, it's pseudonymous, and weakly so, the more you use it the more you dig your own grave, and the evidence is eternally available for perusal by literally anyone at any time from now til the end of time.
On the other hand ....
Is Monero private? Yes.
Is Monero anonymous? Yes.
So Monero is the cypherpunk dream money. That's just how it is. It's super intelectually dishonest to not acknowledge this in my opinion.
This is why we say Bitcoin is like a cult sometimes. The truth can be staring you in the face, but the heavy fog of dogma won't let you see it.
They're both tools, Bitcoin is not good for everything, and neither is Monero, because there are no solutions, only tradeoffs.
See past the dogma please, you're a smart guy. It's obvious, Monero is the best tool for financial privacy at the moment, just as Bitcoin is the best tool for maintaining & increasing purchasing power over the medium and long-term.
I'll end with this. Most Monero people I know would agree that if Bitcoin did everything Monero can, there would be no need for Monero.
If it was the other way around, would you have the same attitude?
The answer determines whether you see these technologies as tools to be used, or religions to be followed.
We see tools. There is no cognitive dissonance.
Maxis see religion, dogma, holy books and priests. It's all or nothing, black or white, and anyone who says otherwise is an heretic.
Sounds familiar?
Cordially,
Papa Figos
Well said.
Monero is a tool. Use it if you need it and understand the trade offs.
I didn’t really understand this until I really started to try to use bitcoin privately and it is cumbersome.
I totally agree, and I know it's frustrating when you feel like most people don't understand / don't want to understand. But on the bright side, I think you'll find that most people are just pragmatic and will use whatever the best tool is that's put in front of them. So I do think most people would use Monero for day to day transactions that they want to be private, and it's short term enough that they're not worried about losing purchasing power in the meantime.
I don't agree with your house example though, because really there's no way to 'own' a house anonymously, so there's sort of no point in buying it anonymously either. Surely?
Also about using Bitcoin privately, I think coin joining and mixing etc are becoming easier all the time. And I think if there's a push for that sort of thing (or other privacy preserving techniques) to just become the norm in wallets then it will all be mixed together enough to stop really mattering anyway. Unless you're trying to preserve anonymity for a very specific opsec reason, but that's different.
Oh, but there are multiple ways to legally buy houses anonymously enough. Setup a company at some tropical island and make it the house owner. Good luck trying to uncover the owners for an offshore company.
Or, use a surrogate person that will own properties on your behalf. You'd be suprised how many homeless people are owners of properties on their name without even imagining. If that's too risky, then do a contract with a reputable law firm and have them own the property on your behalf as trust fund holders.
Plenty of methods suited to all tastes and budgets. But I really see just about zero people using coin joining or any other convoluted method in the real world. They'll just wire monero to cut costs with commissions or risk of losing their money at some shady place.
You keep losing yourself in Monero vs Bitcoin bullshit without paying attention to what I'm saying, I don't have to waste any more time, you Monero supporters are stupid for the most part.
Boy, I'm a Bitcoiner since 2013, I have no fiat shitcoins. I use Bitcoin in my daily life private and my company. So don't tell me I'm loosing myself in Monero vs. Bitcoin.
It seems you don't see the facts.
Your claims about tracking bitcoin don't hold water.
Bitcoin currently has about the same amount of anonymity as cash. Just like cash can be tracked by serial numbers, bitcoin can be tied to accounts that nobody knows who owns them.
Prove me wrong by telling me the name of the person who made this transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/aa394e99f4406cbd23b91dba331cd8c57f1ac572447791ad46f0361b20998c92
Its not me who tracks you. You have to read what I have wrote. There are companies which does that job. Bitcoin is not anonym, its pseudonym.
You have to read what I wrote. Bitcoin is pseudonymous.
The fact of the matter is that you can't back up your claim that companies are able to identify who made that transaction. They can ocassionally tie a transaction to a person, but as soon as the money moves, they don't know it it's still that person's money.
At this point we're just talking past each other, so I guess I'll just end with: have a nice day. 👋
We see exactly how the reality is. They block tainted coins, they tie UTXO to persons etc. There are already cases at the court.
The fact of the matter is that chainanal is mapping he entir utxo set. Probably more than 90% of new users come in through KYCed gateways or ETFs and the anonset of people who have*avoided* KYC is only going to get worse.
Because when there is NO GOOD WAY to add entropy back into the system, it trends towards maximum surveillance.
You can argue that is good enough for now,
but Bitcoin privacy is in a pretty sad fucking state and its only looking to get worse in the short term.
Most of the network is already under surveillance and they *certainly* be sure when you do self transfers etc.
Beyond that you're just trusting the legal system to do the right thing.
LOL
"tell me the name of this person" never fails
then visa/mastercard transactions have more anonymity than bitcoin AND cash!! otherwise prove me wrong by telling me what was the last visa/mastercard transaction to happen, the amount, and the names involved?!?!
Straw man argument. Nobody has claimed visa/mc is private. Try steel manning instead.
Your claim that bitcoin is as anonymous as cash just because we don't know the full name and home address of a random bitcoin tx implies that visa and mastercard transactions are even MORE anonymous than bitcoin and cash, as there isn't even a public explorer for us to observe transactions taking place and see each other's balances
Your bad faith arguments aren't winning anyone over.
It's simple. Bitcoin has privacy. Just accept that simple fact.
Monero has better privacy, and I hope Bitcoin gets some protocol level updates to try to get closer to where monero is.
Try having an honest conversation with people. Trying to belittle people isn't going to be very effective. Besides, you can avoid looking childish if you talk to people like an adult.
I just jumped in because you said bitcoin has the same anonymity as cash and that's clearly stupid. Nothing beats cash because it's offline, payments never registered or recorded (unless under security cameras), even with serial numbers it can move hands with zero traces.
Bitcoin has privacy is OK to say, and Monero has better privacy, even better. Now we're serious
If even Monero can be traced by chainalysis in some rare cases, like the E-A-E attack, to catch criminals, the main argument that bitcoin is closely watched does hold water and it requires way more effort to "wash" bitcoins under surveillance, but it's obvious that picking a random tx on-chain is not a good example of bitcoin privacy since we're not the ones those participants should be worried about
You can only truly hide the traces if doing large size coinjoins, and in very long time intervals so that your entry bitcoins are about weeks or months apart from when you want to spend them with a bunch of mixes in between
I would agree with most of that before the lightning network existed. Now Bitcoin really is like cash. Both are imperfect and both offer a significant degree of privacy.
If you want more details, I'd suggest the privacy chapter of the book "Resistance Money". It lays it out in great detail, with citations and it includes fun tidbits like that those automated checkouts at stores scan the serial numbers of bills.
> prove me wrong by fighting this straw man I created
> bitcoin has the same anonymity as cash
Prove yourself right by showing me the publicly available transaction history of every dollar bill in existence.
You can't track cash as it changes hands. You can track which bank ATM it left and which one it wound up in, that's about it. Cash can't be tracked from one hand to another using serial numbers.
Doesn't the last paragraph describe lightning? A point of entry & exit, can't track what happens in between?
Oh I didn't think about this... A bank can't force you to "deposit at an ATM". A counterparty can force close your channel. So even lightning is jot as good as cash.
Also cash has no payment processors. Lightning doesn't have to have them, but in practicality almost always does, in the form of large liquidity providers offering channels as a service.