Replying to Avatar Anthony Accioly

GA Nostr. I wonder what the eventual implications of this are for folks running personal relays like HAVEN.

I mean, I run a pretty clean and heavily moderated set of relays myself… No porn, self-harm content or anything of the sort.

One good thing about Nostr is that nobody has ever tagged me in any such content on Nostr (For those who say I’m unfair to Nostr: this has happened to me on the Fediverse… once… but still, it didn). If I were ever tagged by someone posting that kind of material, they'd be booted from my WoT pronto, and their content would of course be deleted from my relays.

Still, the question remains: do I need to implement any form of age checking right now? And even if not, if the UK government (or any other) decides that personal relays need to enforce age verification, what should we actually do?

Only the owner of the relay can write to the Outbox relay, so that should be fine (I think? Right?). Just don’t post stupid stuff. But what about the Inbox? How do we “age check” a bunch of bots and maybe a couple dozen people, most of whom are using pseudonyms and, let’s be honest, are unlikely to cooperate? Should I just give users a flag to disable the Inbox relay?

I have absolutely no idea what to do, or even whether this affects personal relays at all.

nostr:nevent1qqsd94dtg2tfjev3pfjg2q9h5e9ty7p5ta4yuur3htwgjwjd3lnk9cspzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsyg8ayz8w3j8jsduq492j39hysg7vnhrtl4zzqcugj4m3q62qlkf8cypsgqqqqqqst5dtuv

#GM #UKOnlineSafetyAct #haven #relay #personalRelay #ageVerification

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cloud fodder 5mo ago

since nostr clients have largely ignored relays, autopiloted their users into them, collected a majority of zaps and monetary support, and been so public facing while not caring about any of this stuff in a cavalier way..

guess what, clients are more likely to get fucked than relays. so it's hilarious actually, that nostr's knee jerk reaction was "what will relays do?!!!". The same shit we always do pinkey.

they may try to pawn it off on relays, their attitude suggests this, but any attempts to mess with nostr is just gonna go straight to the play store and put the hammer down there first.. NOT some json backend thing the client doesnt even show.

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Anthony Accioly 5mo ago

Agreed... Client devs, especially mobile client devs, may be low-hanging fruit. And I guess that “My client just provides a WebSocket between the client and the relay” will work about as well as the old “Demonoid is just an indexer and search engine” excuse.

Still, as someone almost strictly on the relay side of things, I don’t think pushing all responsibility to clients with a "I’m just running some JSON backend thing" stance is going to hold up either. At a bare minimum, relay software should offer proper tools to manage Kind 0, Kind 1, and NIP-23 content. And folks running additional things like Blossom, NIP-96, etc., need solid ways to moderate media.

At the moment, Haven has neither. Well... the moderation tools are basically the file system and a database client 😅. I haven’t played with relay.tools myself, but given the scale of some relays running on it, I assume you already have some moderation tooling in place. I think that both client and relay software devs have to work with operators (and you and I are both people playing both roles at the moment).

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cloud fodder 5mo ago

we have spent far more time focused on this stuff than clients have. so I'm just pointing out, the irony of not a single client user asked any questions. just relays. 😅

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Anthony Accioly 5mo ago

Lol, got it. To be honest, I don’t have much access to client devs (and for the most part, I don’t even know where they hang out to begin with). I started this thread mostly with relays in mind, since the “Other things” folks seem to know what they’re doing. I really can’t say what they’re discussing at the moment—but I do wonder if there’s a plan.

nostr:nprofile1qqsf03c2gsmx5ef4c9zmxvlew04gdh7u94afnknp33qvv3c94kvwxgspr9mhxue69uhkscnj9e3k7unpvdkx2tnnda3kjctv9uq32amnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwv3sk6atn9e5k7tcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0g4rts7, nostr:nprofile1qqszv6q4uryjzr06xfxxew34wwc5hmjfmfpqn229d72gfegsdn2q3fgpzfmhxue69uhkummnw3e82efwvdhk6tcpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhszythwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn99urf278z, nostr:nprofile1qqs8lft0t45k92c78n2zfe6ccvqzhpn977cd3h8wnl579zxhw5dvr9qpzamhxue69uhkvun9deejumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tcprpmhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0qyd8wumn8ghj7urewfsk66ty9enxjct5dfskvtnrdakj7eeth6c, nostr:nprofile1qqsvvcpmpuwvlmrztkwq3d6nunmhf6hh688jw6fzxyjmtl2d5u5qr8spz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsqs7amnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wd4hk6xe6hvp, nostr:nprofile1qqsgzfdez8ksa9xmuvqg5zly3nl9e5xqkpvj8nllj9aw06ra4pqq3qcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsq3qamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wvfskueq5eg09w, nostr:nprofile1qqsyvrp9u6p0mfur9dfdru3d853tx9mdjuhkphxuxgfwmryja7zsvhqpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qgswaehxw309ahx7um5wghx6mmd9uq3wamnwvaz7tmkd96x7u3wdehhxarjxyhxxmmd9ukfdvuv, you’re some of the cool client devs I’ve had the chance to interact with. Some of you even reply to me occasionally 🤣.

Are you planning any changes to your respective clients in terms of moderation and compliance with the whole age verification thing?

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hzrd149 5mo ago

> Are you planning any changes to your respective clients in terms of moderation and compliance with the whole age verification thing?

I thought about adding it as a joke... because there is no way I could verify a users age

That said I agree we really need more moderation tools for relays and blossom servers. I'm just not good at building backend applications 😞

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Anthony Accioly 5mo ago

To be fair I think that noStrudel is not in the worst position given that it doesn't rely on app stores, etc. But I assume that sooner or later all layers will have to do something about it. I really can't imagine noStrudel doing face verification or asking for a photo of my ID, but I really wonder what any clients planning to comply will do. I hope that you all just don't block the UK (as you will be having to do the same for several other countries soon)

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Cody 5mo ago

In fact, I don’t have the capability to verify users’ ages, haha

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Vitor Pamplona 5mo ago

Amethyst is a 17+ app on the Play Store because we couldnt get rid of porn safely enough.

For haven users, I do think we need a LOT of tooling. You should be running an AI that parses every type of post for illegal stuff and another one to process every image in your blossom server. And if those tools can decide, they need a way to send you a message so that you can decide to keep something dubious or not. Relay Ops development is one of the worst funded areas in nostr, unfortunately.

What I know is that clients alone will not be able to solve this.