Nostr Web Client

About Liquid, Cashu and Fedimint.

As you may know I have recommended the use of these solutions to gain privacy, especially Liquid versus the expensive and inefficient coinjoin, but this does not mean that I am not aware of the risks.

My point of view is strictly pragmatic, I use these solutions for my own benefit being aware of the risks.

The example to follow is eMule, which in many ways I have always considered the precursor of Bitcoin. eMule has been around for more than 25 years and has not been able to close down, why?

- Open source

- Distributed

Any layer that is applied to Bitcoin to gain privacy and be able to resist state censorship will have to be.

- Open source

- Distributed

- Its creators must be anonymous.

All centralized and federated solutions will be closed and if their creators are known, they will be jailed unless it is a honeypot. In the same way for decentralized solutions, if their creators are not anonymous, they will also be imprisoned.

You have already seen with Samourai that for the USA there are no jurisdictions, wherever you are from you will be arrested, so both Liquid, as Cashu, as Fedimint are temporary solutions that will end up closed in one way or another.

If you can use them to your benefit then use them, but be aware, I hope that now you understand my defense of Joinmarket against other alternatives and my hope with Joinstr.

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Discussion

GLACA 1y ago

This moment was needed for people who can code to push forward those open source, anonymous solutions. This won't mean mass adoption at all. Percentage of those willing to experiment with this solution will be very small. This won't be seen on ads. It's for internet natives I believe.

TheBitcoinManual 1y ago

Always appreciate your nuance and voice of reason, 100% using base chain comes at a cost, but everything else has the possible costs of a 100% loss so use it wisely.

I do think as we move to a multipolar world, applying jursticitional arbitrage to a federation is looking a lot more attractive, are Russia, China, BRICS countries going to play ball with the US/Est?

Probably not, sure its an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation but its all you really have if you can't be totally decentralised and anonymous.

I like Joinmarket, joinstr, statechain and payjoins too, they can even help mixing things up moving between other layers

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

Very good point on jurisdictional arbitration, although I am pessimistic in that aspect, in the same way that with the COVID scam practically all the states of the world moved at the same time as if they were synchronized by an entity that controlled them all, I believe that in this case the same thing will happen.

The printing of fiat money is a fundamental part of the budget of the states, the states are not going to give up this, and Bitcoin attacks their floating point, they will try to control Bitcoin through KYC and it will be globally, without exceptions I am afraid.

🟠 isolabellart 1y ago

Joinstr?!

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

https://joinstr.xyz/

🟠 isolabellart 1y ago

Oh! Very interesting! Thanks 🤙

Camillo≋ 1y ago

Woke up this morning with whirlpool halted and sparrow removing any mention of it from their docs.

Will definitely look into joinstr 💜

wertyyryyr 1y ago

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Michael 1y ago

Well said

Shawn C. 1y ago

This is the way.

Al₿erto Troya 1y ago

What are the strong points of joinmarkets and joinstr?

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago 💬 1

They are decentralized, there is no central entity behind them.

Al₿erto Troya 1y ago

Who controls the joinmarket hot wallet? Is it a custodial service? If they go after them, can they shut it down and freeze hot wallet assets?

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago 💬 1

the bitcons that are mixed with joinmarket are collaborative transactions, there is no hot wallet, you always keep possession of your bitcoins just like whirpool or wasabi, only joinmarket is decentralized, there is no central entity behind it, it can't be shut down.

Al₿erto Troya 1y ago 💬 1

But is a market made of makers and takers right? In order to be a maker i would imagine you need to deposit your liquidity somewhere? Or am i wrong?

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

As a maker you only allow your bitcoins to participate in collaborative transactions, but these bitcoins never leave your private keys, joinmarket is a non-custodial coinjoin system.

The fact that you participate in a collaborative transaction does not mean that you have to give up custody of your funds.

If at any time the coinjoin is interrupted you get all your funds back.

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago 💬 1

Are you still gonna use Liquid? Even if Liquid doesn’t get shutdown, the swapping services might get kneecapped.

OT 1y ago

It will be great getting more liquidity on join market. Shame it had to happen this way though