Trigger Alert
10,000 sats if you can defend against such an argument 🤙pv
#bitcoin whales fuck up the game theory of a "great wealth transfer" or disrupting the status quo. 85% of bitcoin is already held and 15% left to mine. if you are poor now you will still be poor on a "bitcoin standard".
$boost
#grownostr
#plebchain
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I am not deep enough into the bitcoin space, not because I can't, but because I don't want to. Yet, let me attempt to counter this argument - I wanna try, at least.
The way Bitcoin is constructed is that through regular having and thus an indirect "de-value-ing", even big holders will, at least for a moment, lose some of their value, making the aquisition for other people easier once again. The introduction of Layer 2 protocols, such as Lightning, has proven that this theorem isn't entirely working, but not incorrect either. Through the consecutive accumulation of Bitcoin, even by a poor person, through different means - like, Zaps - it is in fact possible for a "poor" person to rack up their own wealth. Definitively slower than a whale, that's for sure.
The other aspect I would be looking at is the overal "spread". They own all of this share now, but considering that Bitcoin's total amount is fixed, this current "split" is bound to change in some form of capacity. It will always and often represent exactly the same that fiat does: Those who can, will have the most and biggest share of the pie. Why wouldn't it be different in Bitcoin? It was never any different- it has been fundamental even when in correlation to land and country ownership hundres of years ago. That said, even back then, there was still a thriving community about what was essentially "left over". And whilst the whales will keep accumulating their wealth and thus thickening their wallet, there is no denying that the remainder will still be used by other people, and new and inventive ways will be found to do so.
To me, the fixed amount and pre-established halving are two of the key aspects why Bitcoin isn't already totally ruined by whales, and will likely never be, for a long time. Once the whole amount is mined, however, we will see how the community and market responds. Because something will have to happen.
im going to read you comment thoroughly in a sec its a bit long but your first statement speaks volumes my fren 🤙pv
Worth noting that halving isn’t a “split” or devaluing of the currency. Rather it’s cycle by which the rewards paid out to miners is halved every 210K blocks (4ish years). The idea is that miners depend more and more on fees for revenue rather than a programmed handout from the protocol itself.
Same argument in 2010. Same argument in 2023. And in 2050.
lol. I wish I still had my coins, from 2013.
what were they worth then?
Probably around 0.5 or 0.25 bitcoin, from my tiny, bitcoin miner. I should have kept that wallet. 😪 I want to get back into mining, now, but is it worth it?
i bet not. do you recall what amount of bitcoin were mined every ten minutes when you did mine?
Infinitesimal amounts. I should have stuck with it. Bitcoin just seemed less reliable than stocks - back then. What do miners use, these days?
While it's true that a significant portion of Bitcoin is currently held by a small number of whales, it's important to consider the broader context of the cryptocurrency market and the potential benefits of #Bitcoin as a "great wealth transfer" mechanism.
1. Early Adoption: Bitcoin has been around for over a decade, and its early adopters took significant risks when investing in it. Many of these early adopters had to endure periods of uncertainty and volatility. Their willingness to invest in Bitcoin at an early stage was a calculated risk, and it's not unreasonable for them to be rewarded for that risk-taking.
2. Market Dynamics: The concentration of Bitcoin wealth among a few entities is not unique to cryptocurrencies. Traditional financial markets also have wealthy individuals and institutions with significant influence. The presence of whales in Bitcoin doesn't necessarily disrupt the status quo; it reflects a broader trend in financial markets.
3. Decentralization: Bitcoin's underlying technology, blockchain, is designed to be decentralized. While a small number of whales may hold a large portion of Bitcoin, they do not control the network. Bitcoin's decentralized nature ensures that no single entity can manipulate its rules, and anyone can participate in the network.
4. Accessibility: Bitcoin is accessible to anyone with an internet connection, regardless of their initial financial status. It allows for financial inclusion, especially in regions with limited access to traditional banking services. Over time, as more people adopt Bitcoin, its distribution may become more equitable.
5. Long-Term Potential: Bitcoin's scarcity and fixed supply are part of its design. This scarcity may encourage responsible spending and saving, ultimately benefiting individuals who adopt it early. As Bitcoin becomes more widely accepted, its value could increase, potentially benefiting those who hold even small amounts.
In summary, while the current distribution of Bitcoin may seem skewed, it's essential to recognize that Bitcoin's value proposition extends beyond a "get-rich-quick" scheme. It offers the potential for a more decentralized and inclusive financial system, and its long-term impact on wealth distribution remains to be seen. Rather than concluding that being poor now will lead to poverty on a "Bitcoin standard," we should consider the broader dynamics at play and the potential for greater financial inclusivity over time.
i will read your comment more thoroughly in a moment. but i read your conclusion. nobody wants to be included among the poor of the future? most hold bitcoin today not to get rich quick but to be rich (comfortable) in their later years. as opposed to privacy or censorship resistance.
Certainly, I understand the perspective you've shared. Many people do hold #Bitcoin with the long-term goal of achieving financial security and comfort in their later years. However, it's important to consider that Bitcoin's appeal extends beyond just wealth accumulation.
While wealth preservation is an essential aspect of #Bitcoin for many, it's not the sole reason people are interested in it. Its broader implications in terms of financial autonomy, inclusivity, and technological advancement make it a multifaceted asset.
1. Financial Security: While the desire for financial comfort is a significant motivator, #Bitcoin 's role as a store of value, similar to gold, is often touted. Its finite supply and decentralization make it attractive in an age of economic uncertainty.
2. Privacy and Control: #Bitcoin offers a level of financial privacy and control that traditional banking systems don't. This appeals to those concerned about personal financial autonomy and censorship resistance, especially in regions with unstable governments or strict capital controls.
3. Inclusivity: #Bitcoin 's decentralized nature allows participation regardless of one's socio-economic background. It can empower those who are underbanked or lack access to traditional financial services.
4. Innovation: The underlying #blockchain technology has spurred innovation beyond cryptocurrencies, potentially revolutionizing industries like supply chain management and voting systems.
#Bitcoin #nostr #zap #decentralization
all solid points here. i know thats why I use bitcoin.
it almost seems like we are pitching a gucci belt, when one from target would work the same. there are a few good reasons to spend the extra money but majority would not buy it even if they could afford it. and why? its almost a quality over quantity issue.
in a way, bitcoin is the gucci belt (i like gucci btw 🤣)
I think Bitcoin has to be cleaned up, tightened up and locked down. Plus made more accessible to everyone.
We need to Murder! #inscriptions #ordinals #nfts etc. Drop #TapRoot. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Then suspend transaction fees indefinitely. Bitcoin doesn't need them. And if Bitcoin doesn't need them, then they're an unnecessary expense.
Lastly #Bitcoin doesn't need to scale. But if people want to scale the Bitcoins they own off chain that's their business. As long as it doesn't compromise or burden Bitcoin in ANY! way..🧡😊🚀♾️🗽
Ok then i think i did great defending against the argument ahah gitta zap i guess 🤣⚡
It As supposed to be 10,000 😭 i put a lot of enegy putting all the arguments together
i dont think anyone can defend the point if they could there wouodnt be a struggle to get people to adopt a bitcoin standard. check out nostr:npub1jlrs53pkdfjnts29kveljul2sm0actt6n8dxrrzqcersttvcuv3qdjynqn, nostr:npub1h4lrzqnrne72xj00yl3zzr0k6qn93cqe5g4vvkfechs6mn89mwyqfa2jcm and the others. i think they made some great points as well, all slightly different.
In this case no one will receive the 10,000 sats it was a lie 😭
I do not agree with it! 🤙
1. If distributed evenly, every person on earth is entitled to around 260k sats. These are currently still available relatively cheaply.
2. Hodling ends in a Bitcoin Standard. "Spendling" occurs. This means that goods and services will also be able to be paid for in BTC and you can increase your stack.
3. BTC is currently still slightly inflationary. After the next halving, inflation will be less than gold. This means that the expropriation that is currently taking place due to the massive inflation of FIAT currencies ends.
Of course, there will always be super-rich people here too. But everyone's prosperity would increase, equal opportunities would increase and expropriation would decrease.
And these are only a few examples 😃✨🤘
as a bitcoiner I agree.
But not just as a Bitcoiner!
For anyone who understands the FIAT currency system, it must be clear that only money with the characteristics of BTC can bring an improvement for the benefit of all. But of course that's not what "the elites" want.
hell yea its a better system, no doubt about it. as for the elites, i think everything is fine for them as long as they are not disrupted regardless of system. like politics
Look how many millionaires and billionaires there are. Many of them don’t have BTC yet. They will have to buy it expensive / more expensive. This also leads to a redistribution, albeit a slight one.
In any case, it is important to separate the state and money. Fortunately, things like a social credit score like CBDCs will not exist with Bitcoin!
yes, bitcoin is the lifeline against cbdc.
remember how normies use to ask who accepts bitcoin all the time? i concluded then that they just want something that spends like money. fiat, cbdc whatever works
Yes, financial education is one important key!
A lot of people understand now, that the FIAT System is broken. A change is in the air 😁.
you know what, you might be right ha! in clown world we just accept fiat as the norm no education required and even if we want to grow our money we pay a financial advisor who is educated to do it for us we dont really concern ourselves beyond the results. yes, change is a given my fren 🤙pv
PV fren 🫵💜🫂🤙
Still thinking about the conversation 😁🤙
A big problem has already happened to me. Was talking to a friend about BTC. He seemed interested. When I recommended books, videos, etc. to him, he said: OMG, isn't there a video that contains everything and only lasts 15 minutes? A lot of people are just lazy 😅!
So, to keep it simple if someone comes with the argument you mentioned above:
If they are willing, enlighten them.
If they aren't, just say: We now have the chance to be part of a change! Why shouldn't we try it?
😃🫳🎤
Shrinking the 1% by any amount is already a win. Stopping their consolidation of wealth is another. If you are poor now and can't buy bitcoin, you will still be poor on a bitcoin standard, but you will at least have the opportunity to live in a world where saving is honored and prices don't continually go up.
i agree with most everything you said here but Im confused by the last statement. i find it hard to imagine prices on goods will not be manipulated by the powers that be.
Manipulated by cartels, burdensome legislation, taxes, etc — yes, but not by money printing, which also limits the extent to which corruption can operate sustainably. The bitcoin standard doesn't create a utopia, it just solves one of the more pressing societal problems.
hard to argue with that, we do have many examples of corrupt bitcoiners being rekt. I want to think on this more though, there is something more down this rabit hole 🤙pv
That 85% is already more evenly distributed than the current fiat market. As adoption and currency use grows that distribution will increase. And many btc “whales” are not traditional billionaires, so there will be a certain amount of wealth transferred. Finally, the network effect of a fair, decentralized monetary system will elevate all economies and individuals.
you and i and other bitcoiners believe this. normies want to see the impact in real time. agreed? In real time I can appreciate their skepticism.
Enough piranhas will eventually eat the whales
Every new technology or financial system faces teething problems. Just as the internet disrupted traditional media & information systems, Bitcoin, with time, might find innovative ways to address wealth concentration issues… Not everyone is financially literate!
Casuistry: "A financial institution can create ‘loyalty' by seeing the next-generation as unique individuals & not just as linear continuation of their parents"~ Viola Werner.
the quote is awesome. i doubt bitcoin appreciates me as its just software. but I appreciate my bitcoin and it does enable a level of individual expression that i could not achieve in fiat so gotta love that. you got me reconsidering, is bitcoin adoption a financial literacy issue or something else?
Hummm! Substantially supra-psychological question, But let’s admit that the financial literacy is inherent, which generates parallel factors & a low systemic interpretation of Bitcoin...
Bitcoin is something else & isn’t just about doing accounting in togs on computer.
Moreover, not all bitcoiners have the same definition of ‘Porsche’.
The fundamental principles of Bitcoin's technology & its decentralized governance mechanisms provide a strong defense against any individual or group disproportionately influencing the system. Bitcoin's core innovation lies not just in wealth redistribution but in creating a financial system that operates without centralized control & the mathematics of elliptic curves play a critical role in achieving this.
Elementary: The next generation might not be the most asset-rich or most profitable clients.. Which presents a value interesting conundrum for multiple industries.. You can spend years maintaining a relationship without bringing in much business in a traditional sense!
interesting take
Nothing will change. As time goes on at some place, some time, you will start spending your Bitcoin. Guess who will make the goods or services for it which you will buy? Ohh yeah, BlackRock. Eventually nothing will change because even if you're living an ultra low time-preference life, you or your grandson will sell those Bitcoin for some shiny new stuff produced by one of BlackRock's companies. End of story.
(Except BlackRock won’t exist under a bitcoin standard…they’re too centralized, large, and inefficient.)
I don't see your point. If they own everything, I don't think Bitcoin will change this.
When the cost of capital is higher because bitcoin is setting the risk free rate, large companies (like BlackRock) cannot sit on assets that don’t generate the returns needed to deliver their cost of capital to shareholders.
These large organizations will sell assets to buy bitcoin. The price these assets are sold for will reflect discounting cash flows using bitcoin’s appreciation rate. The buyers of those assets will have the knowledge to make the assets generate more value than their prior owners.
The implications of bitcoin to “public markets” as we know them today is massive, absolutely massive.
you are describing a mega threat to national security as we are but a big organization of corporations. if something on earth or in cyberspace existed that could have such an impact. would be worse than covid. no?
The coming bitcoin adoption will be a massive reallocation of capital.
Many of the “assets” we have today only have value because our discount rate has been so low for so long. Too many apartment complexes, too many restaurants, too many gyms, too many windmills…too much “entertainment,” too many apps…
This is because for the last 20 years, economic models were run assuming zombie terminal growth rates of 3-5% and discount rates of 6% … capital was allocated to projects that never contemplated a parallel system emerging with a discount rate of 12% … and that’s once we have complete adoption of Bitcoin.
Between now and a “bitcoin standard”, the annual appreciation of bitcoin’s value is going to be much, much higher (50+%). People will sell their stock to buy bitcoin. People will sell their 2nd homes to buy bitcoin. People will downsize their primary home to buy bitcoin. Who will be the buyer of these other assets?
Bitcoiners understand bitcoin is the best asset to hold…for example, will a bitcoiner part with bitcoin for a large mansion with high maintenance costs. No, so the price of the mansion will fall…and fall.
This same dynamic will happen with corporate equities. In order to keep investors, companies will buy bitcoin. But in order to buy bitcoin, they’ll have to sell their non-productive assets.
Yes, adoption of a bitcoin standard will be very disruptive to the status quo of modern “economics”. Yet it is inevitable … good in the long-run but the unwind will be chaotic and there will be losers. A less cynical view of the State is that “it” is merely trying to coordinate a “smooth” transition to our next economic paradigm.
Savings and prudence rather than spending and consumption. The disruption is good for mankind but there will be a period of transition.
Still you haven't convinced me. From my point of view BlackRock will act as a giant "black hole" which will sell everything for Bitcoin and people will sooner or later sell their coins for the stuff BlackRock's companies are making. BlackRock will just have more and more Bitcoin with its unlimited Fiat founding by cheap credits too. Everyone has a positive time-preference. BlackRock just needs to be patient and either with its ETF or by their companies, they will suck in all the Bitcoin, just like with the current Fiat system. To make BlackRock fail it must be a miracle because people needs to stop selling their Bitcoin at any price it will in the future have, which won't happen because of the previously mentioned positive time-preference. Everyone has a selling point... everyone...
Okay. We’ll see!
Blackrock will exist because the will own a ton of bitcoin and other assets. But cnetralization collapses under its own weight, so I am not concerned at all about Blackrock owning and controlling everything.
tough pill, i hope you are wrong about that. however now is not the time for naivity 🤙pv
Not really. Is not intended to correct wealth distribution, but it does correct debasement which affects mainly the poor.
At the end, early adopters could be extremely rich, yes. They could also expend those bitcoins and continue its distribution. But there is no part of the Bitcoin thesis that is supposed to be a socialist project.
It levels the playing field, but you still have to earn your sats.
the cantillion effect must be considered when correcting the issue.
found a good definition for context
Cantillon also had a theory in which the beneficiaries of the state creating the currency is based on the institutional setup of that state. This essentially means, “he who was close to the king and the wealthy”, likely benefitted from the distributional choices of currency through the system.
The difference being the fact that nobody handed you the sats you have, most probably you had to work hard to exchange something for them. or maybe some were given to you, if you have a very good friend 😂.
But by design, all sats are created by Work, which can be done by anyone that wishes to try to find the next block. And those of us that didn’t do the work to create those sats, would have to work to give something in exchange for those sats. This is not cantillon at all.
Cantillon is when I give my “insiders” and “devs” a bunch of tokens for the mere luck of they being close to “the project”. Given them an arbitrage opportunity not available to others.
most of the largest whales of today got the money to buy their bitcoin this early from the cantillion effect is my point. bitcoin consolidation by those same people could spell doom is my speculation. these are not the same plebs that held 10s 100s or even 1000s of btc back in the day. its obvious by the stacking goals of .3 btc by todays bitcoiners. i feel old now 🤣🤣
Look, I get where you're coming from. The distribution of Bitcoin does seem unfair if you just look at the raw numbers. But we gotta think deeper about this.
First off, Bitcoin is still new. Yeah, early adopters got a bigger piece of the pie. But that's how it works with any new technology. The playing field gets more level over time as more people join in.
And Bitcoin actually gives normal folks a shot at building some wealth. With dollars, you pretty much have to already be rich to get richer. The game is rigged for the elites. But Bitcoin lets anyone anywhere participate and profit. All you need is an internet connection.
I ain't saying Bitcoin will make everyone equal. But it gives a lot more people a seat at the table. The old financial system was like a fancy restaurant where only the rich could afford to eat. Bitcoin is more like a food truck festival where everyone can grab a bite.
So don't sweat the distribution too much. Over time, more coins will get spread around. And the "unbanked" finally get access to financial services. Bitcoin is still a baby. Let's see where this experiment takes us before calling it a failure.
The future is unwritten, bro. Bitcoin is just a tool. What matters is how we use it.
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