Nostr Web Client

We’ve been thinking about the best sustainable subscription model for filter.nostr.wine (and our other upcoming features + additional relays) while still keeping nostr.wine accessible with only a one-time payment.

Haven’t built anything yet, but here’s what we came up with:

- Same one-time admission fee for nostr.wine (18888) sats gets you write access to nostr.wine and 1 month of access to filter.nostr.wine (+ others)

- After the first month included, filter.nostr.wine will require an ongoing monthly fee (amount tbd). You will receive a DM with a link to add time to your account in advance of its expiration.

- On the website you will be able to choose the amount you want to pay (minimum 1 month fee). We will automatically convert this amount in to days of access.

- Purchases over 6 months will automatically have their time doubled (1 year+ is 50% off). Perhaps a lesser discount for 3+ months?

We are looking for feedback from the 🍷 squad. What do you think of this concept and what would you change?

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Discussion

Evan 2y ago

Prices obviously tbd, but other than that this seems like a really great and sustainable subscription method. I would subscribe.

Mazin 2y ago

I’ve been tossing around ~10k sats/month in my head. I think keeping it an even simple amount makes for easier math during the pick your own amount part.

Evan 2y ago

Feels pretty reasonable. It’s not even hard to get zapped enough to cover that each month.

Mazin 2y ago

#[3]

Jason Schwarz 2y ago

Seems like a reasonable amount. I do like nice, round math.

Lurking Cat 2y ago

I like this idea, especially subscription model only for filter.nostr.wine extra service. I think this is mainly due to high server activity to aggregate from public relay for every unique public key member, right?

AK 👸🏻 2y ago

if i am paying, i also expect spam free and ad free or is that too much to ask?

Lurking Cat 2y ago

Yes, we won't likely see any spam by using paid relays as long as we enable them for reading nostr data and limit the data coming from free public relay.

Paid relays act like a wall that prevent spam from Bot coming. Basically, any paid relays will prevent the spam coming to those relay because spam actor won't likely spend money to spread their spam. Their main targets are free public relay which don't have any spam filter mechanism.

AK 👸🏻 2y ago

sounds good to me.

i'm in!

Mazin 2y ago

Exactly. Nostr.wine is considerably easier to run and maintain.

Roir Raw 2y ago

Sounds reasonable and simple

Cainã Costa 2y ago

I really like the one time payment model, but if I had to choose a recurring one, would prefer to pay yearly. Recurring transactions in crypto are shit right now.

Mazin 2y ago

There is a lot of friction with recurring payments I agree. That’s why we came up with the pick how much you want to pay. If you don’t want to deal with the ongoing monthly hassle, you can buy as much time as you want.

eee8f902... 2y ago

Wine will always be my first relay crush, I’d subscribe 💪

oobiyou 2y ago

Sounds good. Get it done and take my sats.

chowcollection 2y ago

I was wondering if it might work to have an option for someone who wants to spend a lot to lower the price for others. I.e. what could happen if someone wanted to support this with 1, 5, 10 million sats? Could that scale? Or maybe that would allow a limited number to receive heavily discounted fees.

Mazin 2y ago

Funny you mention this we were just talking about how we could have a donation pool of some sort.

My idea was to use it for new users though. Some small % chance per pubkey that when you try to sign up for nostr.wine it tells you your invoice was paid by the donation pool. The % would increase as the pool balance increased.

chowcollection 2y ago

I think the discount being a surprise might be a challenge though because someone that couldn’t afford it wouldn’t even try to buy it in the first place

Mazin 2y ago

Hmm true, good point. We could advertise it separately as an ongoing giveaway. Just not sure how to not get exploited by spammers.

Your idea would be more suited for offering bonus months to already paying members. That could be done automatically/randomly but we’d risk giving away months to inactive users.

nobody 2y ago

The only other option would be to have human intervention to vet the pubkey, which sounds like a lot of work. This did make me think it's not very hard to pay for subs for other people.

Gifting someone's pubkey a subscription might even be fun and a way to greet new people on Nostr who come in with interesting content.

Mazin 2y ago

It is a great way and I did it a bunch of it in the earliest nostr.wine days. I think that will continue to happen with this awesome community. It just doesn’t scale if someone wanted to donate 1M sats or something.

nobody 2y ago

Oh I definitely agree, I just can't think of a simple way on your end to prevent it going to spammers either. That does seem a non-trivial task.

Benitez Chevez, Wilson 2y ago

https://t.me/+B6dW1zkAgD5lYzE8

Benitez Chevez, Wilson 2y ago

https://t.me/+B6dW1zkAgD5lYzE8

chowcollection 2y ago

Yeah it would be great if this kind of gifting could be as easy as Zapping

yunginter.net 2y ago

gifting mechanic is a really great way to get new subs… twitch “choose your recipient” style > YouTube buy a random a membership.

would be cool to snipe the invoice of already subbed people, maybe it can be in relay meta data, (cost, lnbc, duration, dates) and send them a zap like receipt when the invoice is covered.

Mazin 2y ago

Meant to include this #[1]

ティル父さん 2y ago

新規入会もそろそろ伸び悩む頃だろうし致し方ないのかも。価格次第かなあ……

#[0]

Smith 2y ago

As an existing customer I’d be happy to subscribe. Would need to know the price first but also happy to subscribe for year.

Now, what new features and additional relays are you teasing us with?

Mazin 2y ago

I’m thinking ~10k sats/month (5k/month if you take advantage of the discount).

I won’t spill the beans on details but a few new feature teasers:

- User configurable global views on filter.nostr.wine (different “filters” outside of follows+follows)

- Supplemental private relay(s) (only paid members can READ+write)

- Special event relay(s)

Smith 2y ago

Ok sounds good

Jason Schwarz 2y ago

Seems like a reasonable plan depending on the price

GUI⚡ 2y ago

I'm all for your plan.

As for the amount, I guess you're the most able to fix it given the number of subscriptions you have right now and your cost basis.

10k is no small fee given the current prices of other relays but it's all getting worked out so it might be just what's needed.

You can count me in either way. 👍

Mazin 2y ago

Thank you! Still thinking about the amount and regardless of what we choose we will monitor and adjust it as needed. We definitely want to keep it accessible.

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

Why r you charging extra for a filter? Does it cost more to run a server with filter? 18k is already pretty expensive without the monthly fees.

Mazin 2y ago

Yes, filter.nostr.wine is many times more expensive to run than nostr.wine due to its features.

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

Oh. Why is that?

Mazin 2y ago

Aggregating for large public relays is expensive, constantly updating our users follows and their follows is expensive, and our filtering process can be resource intensive if your network is large.

You can read about how it works here: https://filter.nostr.wine

BoomTown 2y ago

Ultimately, there will be deflationary pressure on the monthly price so I guess you can strike while the iron is hot.

Question: what’s the process for signing up for a paid relay? Explain to a newb tech guy … I came to find bitcoin through energy and finance. Still learning the digital/tech side.

Mazin 2y ago

We hope to continue differentiating from other paid relays with features and performance.

For now, generally the process is:

1. Go to the relays website, like https://nostr.wine

2. Enter your npub and pay the created invoice

3. Add the relay to your relay list in your client

Mazin 2y ago

Different timezones, new feedback?

#[0]

iefan 🕊️ 2y ago

I believe that this is the most sensible approach and the best way to ensure sustainability. Sustainability should be our top priority, and we should establish at least some premium relays that we can rely on.

stevebrown 2y ago

How about transparent usage vs cost + your markup. I would prefer pay for what I owe, while seeing you also get what you need.

Bitcoin will seek and destroy monthly subscription models

Mazin 2y ago

I don’t have any issue with this in concept but practically speaking our biggest “expense” right now is our time.

I don’t know what the future of nostr holds but at present the amount we would need to charge per user to get anywhere close to recouping the cost of only the time #[3] and I have invested so far developing and monitoring our relays would far exceed what we expect to charge. This doesn’t include our actual monthly server and service costs or any future development.

かっぱせいじん 2y ago

大きな額じゃないけど毎月はちょっと…

https://awebanalysis.com/ja/convert-satoshi-to-yen-jpy/

#[0]

maya🍀 2y ago

無理やー。

かっぱせいじん 2y ago

ですよね。自分はグローバルをほぼ見ていないからフィルタリングも今はそれほど気にならないし。

maya🍀 2y ago

毎月豊富なサトシが手に入るってわけじゃないですからねー。🥺

yutaro 2y ago

毎月は要検討。

pukka 2y ago

Sounds good 🤙🏼

btcdrone 2y ago

This might have meed mentioned but a yearly (founder's or other) option would be preferable to a lot of people including myself. The pricing, be it discounted/time or something else, should be at the very least comparable to other high end relays.

Maybe an option to have a basic plan and unlock certain features as upgrades?