I guess you dont like privacy?
Discussion
😆muted
Zealots
I like privacy, I dislike shitcoins.
Why not use monero to have more privacy with bitcoin
Because I can use lightning instead.
🎯
This is written by AI when asked to compare privacy on bitcoin lightning network and Monero but I think it sums up the differences quite well. Lightning provides better privacy than on chain but does not match Monero. This is not a shot at lightning because I use it often, but it doesn’t provide equivalent privacy as Monero as well lightning is quite limited for larger tx.
“Short answer: they aren’t directly comparable as “privacy stacks,” because they solve different problems. Bitcoin with Lightning Network (LN) focuses on scalable, low-fee, fast off-chain payments for Bitcoin, whereas Monero is a privacy-centric on-chain cryptocurrency. If your metric is privacy by default and on-chain unlinkability, Monero has stronger built-in privacy. If your metric is scalable payments for Bitcoin with reasonable privacy protections, Lightning offers different trade-offs.
Key dimensions to compare
Privacy model
Monero: On-chain privacy by default. RingCT, stealth addresses, and ring signatures hide amounts, senders, and recipients on-chain. Strong unlinkability between transactions.
Bitcoin + LN: Privacy is not default. LN enhances efficiency but reveals more network-level metadata. Payments traverse channels and hops; there can be metadata leaks about transaction graph and user activity unless additional privacy tactics are used (e.g., onion routing, privacy-preserving routing, avoiding reuse of channels). On-chain Bitcoin remains public.
Layering and scope
Monero: Pure on-chain privacy. No separate layer required.
LN: A second-layer solution on top of Bitcoin. It offloads many transactions from the main chain, enabling micropayments but adding complexity and different privacy considerations (channel opening/closing on-chain, liquidity management, routing). Privacy is affected by how channels are opened/closed and how nodes observe traffic.
Fungibility and auditability
Monero: High fungibility due to hidden amounts and addresses. Hard to trace or blacklist funds.
Bitcoin + LN: Fungibility is not as strong. On-chain UTXOs are traceable; LN payments can be subject to network-level analysis, though it’s less transparent than on-chain Bitcoin. Some privacy-enhancing research and implementations exist but aren’t as robust as Monero’s default privacy.
Security model and trust
Monero: Privacy is cryptographic and protocol-driven. Security rests on ring signatures, RingCT, stealth addresses; no trusted setup.
LN: Security depends on channel state, liquidity, routing integrity, and eventual on-chain settlement. User needs to manage channel state, opening/closing costs, and potential liquidity risk.
Adoption and ecosystem readiness
Monero: Strong privacy feature set; narrower merchant/integration adoption due to regulatory concerns and fungibility debates.
LN: Growing ecosystem for Bitcoin payments, wallets, and services. More scalable for merchant adoption and everyday payments; mais awareness of privacy trade-offs is increasing.
Concrete privacy considerations for LN
Channel creation: Opening a payment channel requires a transaction on-chain (on Bitcoin) that is visible. This can leak some timing and counterparty information.
Route privacy: LN uses onion routing (Sphinx-like). In practice, adversaries with network visibility and global topology knowledge could infer payment paths or correlate payments, especially if many hops share the same nodes.
Channel topology: Reusing channels and clustering payments through the same route can create fingerprinting opportunities.
Watchtowers: To protect against invalid states, users may rely on watchtowers; this adds trust and complexity.
Liquidity and liquidity-based privacy: Limited liquidity can reveal user preferences (where funds are moving), potentially reducing privacy.
Practical guidance
If your primary goal is strong, default privacy for value transfers, Monero remains the better option for on-chain privacy.
If you want Bitcoin-level settlement with scalable microtransactions and are willing to accept less-than-default privacy, LN is compelling and widely deployed.
For privacy-conscious Bitcoin users, consider:
Using LN with privacy practices: avoid reusing channels, use different routing peers, and consider privacy-focused wallets that minimize metadata leakage.
Keeping a mix of on-chain and off-chain activity to reduce linkability, while understanding that on-chain privacy remains lower than Monero.
Being aware of regulatory and exchange implications, as LN usage can still be observed by operators and network observers.
Bottom line
Bitcoin LN and Monero target different problems: LN aims to scale and speed up Bitcoin payments with an added privacy layer that is not as strong or default as Monero’s on-chain privacy.
If privacy is your core requirement, Monero offers stronger, default privacy; LN can complement Bitcoin’s scalability but does not reach Monero’s level of on-chain confidentiality.
For practical use, evaluate your threat model: if you must transact privately and fungibly, Monero is superior; if you need Bitcoin-like settlement with high throughput, LN is valuable but accept the privacy trade-offs.
If you want, tell me your specific use-case (on-chain vs off-chain, regulatory constraints, transaction sizes, target audience), and I can tailor a privacy-oriented comparison and recommendations.”
Incorrect answer
What is incorrect?
Lightning is more private than Monero for many reasons. Supertesnet has explained it many times, and it's not something quick and easy to explain, and right now I'm tired 😴.
Ok
He doesn't know he's wrong thus he can't disprove it. He's incorporated Bitcoin as a core facet of his identity thus acknowledging that it is inferior in some capacities to other projects would require him to fundamentally change his self image. Notice on this post or any others where I or other have had this debate with him, he's incapable of even providing a counterargument. Only "that's incorrect" or "Monero is a shitcoin" or the best one "muted".
> He's incorporated Bitcoin as a core facet of his identity
Seems to me you have done the same with Monero.
I'm a privacy and self sovereignty maximalist. That is my identity.
I'm interested in any form of private money, cash, gold or other crypto projects.
Cool. So why the urge to shill your shitcoin to every Bitcoiner out there?
I'm no shill, I don't care if you buy Monero it doesn't affect me at all really. I have an issue when people like nostr:nprofile1qqs0eac2gh86s9l24qfmnw52xawhz0f3d862yleaetpafygjmanaxlspzdmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2ue0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3uamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3dwp6kytnhv4kxcmmjv3jhytnwv46z7ramexg claim that Bitcoin is just as private or even more private than Monero. Its a dangerous falsehood that can land people in trouble with authorities.
Bitcoin is is Bitcoin, it's a transparency coin with layers and techniques you can apply to obfuscate the transparent bits with varying degrees of tradeoffs.
Monero is a rengineered Bitcoin using the transparent blockchain technology and applying multiple layers of obfuscation into each transaction, by default to a much greater degree than even a lightning transaction from a channel opened with a taproot transaction from a whole coinjoined UTXO.
Also the reason I know Bitcoin and Lightning to this level is because I use it too. Specifically with Zeus on a channel opened with a UTXO I got from Retoswap by swapping Monero. For low stakes stuff with small amounts like zaps, it's better than Monero because it's faster and doesn't have tax implications.
Is that me making Monero my identity?
Maybe not more private, but in certain situations lightning can be as private as Monero. nostr:nprofile1qqszrqlfgavys8g0zf8mmy79dn92ghn723wwawx49py0nqjn7jtmjagppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5q3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwdehhxarj9e3xzmny478z2v has done a ton of research and testing on the topic. If you’re interested, check his npub and search by key word “Monero”. Certainly Monero’s opt out privacy is better UX than Lightning’s opt in privacy. One doesn’t require special skills and effort to be private, the other does. My beef with Monero is not technical in nature. It’s not the first shitcoin to be technologically superior to Bitcoin in some aspects, inferior in others. To be fair, of all the shitcoins out there I think Monero is the least shitty and the most honest. And your culture right now is more pure than the one in Bitcoin (you have your priorities straight). I also think you won’t get much bigger compared to Bitcoin, so you might be able to retain this cool features.
Oh nice we're mostly in agreement I think. I too don't expect Monero to moon compared to Bitcoin and wouldn't want it to since it would almost certainly require increased paperization through custodial holdings. I too agree the Monero culture is more pure and focused on usage. Like I said Lightning's got some great advantages and I use it myself, and I have a good level of confidence in its sending privacy with my setup. most don't have a setup like mine though and even learning how to do so took me longer than even setting up my public Monero node, thus its a non starter for most who settle with custodial solutions.
In fact, Lightning is very similar to the Tor network. It does not keep a record of transactions like Monero, nor is it a type of coinjoin like Monero with 16 decoy addresses. The information is simply encrypted, and it is impossible to know how much you are sending or where the funds are coming from. As I mentioned, the same applies to the recipient with Bolt 12 or Bolt 11 with blinded paths.
I think part of the issue is if someone hears lightning is more private then Monero then opens strike or WoS and starts sending sats is it really private? A lot of this comes down to the user and their ability to run a lightning node over tor and fund channel liquidity. Channel liquidity is also a limiting factor for the size of tx you can send. Again I’m not bashing lightning it definitely has a lot of positives but Monero you are not limited by tx size and privacy works as default not dependent on the user to do it right. I’m trying to be unbiased as I use all 3 so I see benefits and drawbacks of all of them. Bitcoin, lightning and Monero. Using all 3 works well for me for different purposes. I wish they all were one.
Because it is not necessary, since Lightning is more private than Monero.
Muted.
Lightning is inferior to Monero's privacy both on a network level, and on an on-chain level.
Most importantly it's inferior on a UX level. Running your own LND node either behind Tor at home or on a VPS paid in Monero or at least a strong lightning setup (oh wait we can't do that yet because we're trying to setup lightning) then getting non-KYC Bitcoin, then opening your own channel making sure to use the whole UTXO to avoid cospends, then making sure to properly label the original UTXO and to never accidentally connect it to an Electrum server without Tor or never use it in a manner that links it to your identity. Only THEN do you have a setup where you can SEND lightning in a manner that is even remotely comparable to using Monero bought from a KYC exchange and connected to a public node. Recieving privacy is still inferior because it leaks your public key which is linked to your channel which is linked to your UTXO which is linked to the UTXO before it etc. etc.
You don't do that because you have a Wallet of Satoshi link in your bio which has 0 privacy from the Wallet of Satoshi provider. So your claim doesn't apply to you in any scenario, since you've excluded the perfect OPSEC scenario I've outlined.
You're delusional. Disprove what I've said I dare you.
ripsline.com solves this elegantly with our btcpayserver Virtual Private Node implementation.
You require an email and payment in either on-chain or lightning Bitcoin. The end user has to ensure that their email isn't linked to their identity or IP (a tall order for most) AND they use a properly non-KYC Bitcoin UTXO to pay for the service.
Even then you have root access to the server and all its traffic. A VPS will always offer a superior trust model as you can compile the software yourself on your computer, sign it, then deploy it on the VPS. What assurances do you have that you're not running malicious LND software? What assurances do you have that you're not logging LND activity and traffic? What assurances can you make that you're not under gag order by a state intelligence agency and can't disclose that you're giving them data?
All these points were considered in the architecture of our implementation. It is evident you spent <5mins checking out the site. Else you would see the issues highlighted above are accounted for.
1. the Flow Chart that is highlighted in the How It Works section of our Buy page: users are encouraged to set up a Dedicated Device prior to Virtual Private Node purchase. *We envision users to setup device level VPN and use email alias for purchase.
2. This implementation is literally run on a VPS... We never have root access to the server, that information is emailed directly from VPS provider to ripsline user's email provided at checkout. Even so, they cannot access the VPS until root password is changed. We merely provision the VPS for end user, they maintain VPS credentials always.
3. You can check custom installer for malicious LND software as the script is FOSS viewable here: https://github.com/ripsline/Virtual-Private-Node
4. The last two points do not make sense because we never have any information other than user's email and domain name (can use fake domain name which is also highlighted on the site).
Yes I spent less than 5 minutes I spent about 1 minute reviewing your page. So you charge $360 a year to provision a VPS for a client, run your open source script, then give the user SSH credentials for the VPS? Is that correct? If so would the user not be better off avoiding the email and middle man all-together and provision their own VPS and run the script themselves? The users adding an identifier in the email and trusting you not to run a modified script at time of install, is that not correct?
What you describe is more private than what I originally surmised, but still leaves deanonymizing attack vectors open or am I wrong?
We purchase the Virtual Private Server at cost for 1 year (~$200). The email provided to us at checkout is used so only you have access to your VPS client portal. After 1 year, you will have to pay the VPS provider ~$200 for the second year and so on.
When you purchase through us, we provide ongoing support and a custom script that makes the installation process easier. In the order credentials file, we encourage users to not trust us but to review the script before they run it themselves... they can even paste it into chatgpt to check for malware.
We never provide SSH credentials to the user, the VPS provider emails those directly to ripsline user.
Users are encouraged to provision their own VPS and run the script themselves. Users who know the value of their time will quickly see that our one-time setup fee, which includes ongoing support, is a far better investment than spending their time figuring it out on their own.
There are no deanonymizing attack vectors if user checkouts with email alias, VPN, and fake domain name. All highlighted on our site: https://ripsline.com
The email alias and VPN become the de-anonymizing attack vectors since they are the weak links in the chain and are accessible through government subpoena but for most are acceptable tradeoffs for the service you're offering. I think you're doing a good service.
Daedalus, you are attacking our business model by saying that VPNs and email alias' are attack vectors. I appreciate your kind words and happy to answer your questions. However, you are creating FUD on our business due to concerns with VPNs? Common.
I also don't understand your point. We can see the IP address (just like every website in the world) of our users. And we know the email used to sign up so we can send order details and support users.
If a government subpoena's us, how would a user be deanonymized? The government would see an IP address that is not theirs and an email hopefully not tied to their personal identity.
Thinking it over I think those can be reasonable tradeoffs and are pretty trust minimized for the client. I commend you on your service sounds like a great product for the right user.
Nice. You realised an idea I had in the past, but thought won’t work at scale. My idea was to directly sell BTCPay plug in and play physical servers.
thanks. it is something we considered: selling physical hardware w/ BTCPay. However, we feel running BTCPay on a VPS has significant benefits.
Could you name a few? I mean apart from the obvious ones.
You never have to worry about revealing your IP address. Trade-offs are that ripsline Virtual Private Node is pruned, and you have to trust the VPS provider to not breach terms and access the hardware you rent. Our focus is to provide users with a lightning node, Sparrow Wallet is a nice addition for people who seek an on-chain wallet node backend. With expensive home nodes, you will either leak your IP address OR conceil your IP by using TOR and deal with connectivity issues on lightning.
VPS is better for digital nomads.
Got it. Thanks 🙏
what a retard attitude
I like BTC (is king + freedom), and XMR has utility (personally, I find privacy important),
both coins can make the world a better place 🤔