Replying to Avatar Force2B

Phenomenal question, I was raised catholic, I ponder philosophical and spiritual matters often, and I think this question is one that everyone should ask themselves if they believe they know truth and people of other beliefs do not.

I have come to believe that you can only know relative truth (since our material reality is relative) and that there is a possibility that what comes next is also relative. All I can hope for is that I join all other souls in a place of love because that is the one relative feeling I know intimately to be joyful and selfless.
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nobody 2y ago

Well said.

Jesus said, John 20:29 (RSVCE): 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

He acknowledged that those who followed would be making an act of faith, and that the knowledge would not be absolute.

As to what the Church officially teaches on the future of non-believers, it is a complicated subject not lent to easy understanding in short form posts, and not what is commonly understood. The tl;dr as best as I can dare to attempt to summarize complex theology, is hell is reserved for those who, in full knowledge and assent of mind, choose to live in mortal sin.

This has been interpreted various ways. Many hold that by not being convinced of the teachings truthfulness, you are not in full knowledge, and not mortally sinning in rejection.

It is worth pointing out that the church never officially condemns anyone to hell, as that is between them and God, and the catechism specifically mentions several other faiths as clearly having a different path to God, however mysterious that may appear to us.

Christians who claim to know the mind of God with any certainty, claim a bit too much in my humble opinion.

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Force2B 2y ago

Great summary

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nobody 2y ago

Yes, great summary-thank you. But isn’t the Bible supposed to be “The Word of God”, and the book in which God chose to send his message, so that Christians can know, with some certainty, the mind of God?

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nobody 2y ago

I would say it is the word of God, but not that it reveals the mind of God. Anything we would know about the mind of God from the Scriptures would be a second order approximation.

There are also several genera in the Scriptures. In the Catholic canon of scripture, there is History, Law, Novels, Proverbs, Psalms (prayers) etc. Those genera must be taken into account when interpreting the purpose and message.

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nobody 2y ago

Is the Old Testament also the Word of God, or just the New Testament?

The Old Testament is quite “unforgiving” to say it mildly, about how to treat non-believers. Many disturbing examples.

“but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death” (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

Deuteronomy 17 discusses stoning to death those people who “hath gone and served other Gods”.

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nobody 2y ago

2 Chronicles deals with an oath given by King Asa and all the people of Jerusalem. It says right after that, that they repented, and: “2 Chronicles 15:15 (RSVCE): 15 And all Judah rejoiced over the oath; for they had sworn with all their heart, and had sought him with their whole desire, and he was found by them, and the Lord gave them rest round about.”

The Lord gave them rest.

Deuteronomy 17 is a much better example of what you are driving at. In this case mosaic law directly orders the stoning of those who engage in worship of other gods.

There are a few points that can be made in no particular order:

1. This law was binding upon the people of Israel, who had directly witnessed and seen their God.

2. The people of Israel were under an earlier covenant that the one extended to gentiles by Christ.

3. This was during the time of the prophets, before the final revelation of Christ, when God still spoke directly to man.

As for those who died before Christ, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that they remained in Limbo until the death of Christ, at which point Christ opened the gates of heaven to the just who died before him:

“Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him—he who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . .”I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” (CCC 635)

See also CCC637.