wtf? Just can’t believe this is just an ongoing thing that never stops

For those of you that feel “ahh but we have Lightning” let me tell you that if you really want to have self custodial LN with these fees it’ll force you to pay higher price and to only open big channels

In addition, any payment below 7usd in LN if it fails, can’t really be recovered onchain

So.. this is not very good and I hope it again forces us to seriously discuss how to enable some of the proposed upgrades so all this usage goes to a sidechain or an L2 and we continue using bitcoin and Lightning while enabling those solutions as well like ZK proof, spv proofs, etc

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Won't this all go away once the ordinal fad insanity ceases?

It’s just growing like crazy now… doesn’t seem to be stopping

What If they still want to trade onchain and not in a sidechain? What if the mempool fills with any other reason? Let's say adoption or just degen day trading? LN has to improve UX. Fedimints and things like cashu might help. High fees onchain was always going to be a reality.

Fedimints can’t be the solution to the problem as it requires some sort of custody. They are good solutions though as complementary to other use cases

If we have trustless L2 then we could have very secured Lightning on L2 and we could all keep going using LN for instance

Fedimint is not a solution for everyone but some people can rely on it with people they already know and thrust. Self custody LN is the best solution, I believe tools being developed like blockstream greenlight, or breez Lightning as a Service will greatly improve this.

Fedimint is just buzzword for slightly better custodial

Let’s not get confused

Not confused at all, It is clear in what I've said that it requires thrust.

I’m fine with Fedimint in general, and I think there are good use cases for it. I just don’t want it to be seen as the solution for self custody :)

If I open 10 channels in batch (enough to cover most people’s needs) this will cost me 76cent per channel on high priority.

Seriously? This is supposed to be the big killer of lightning?

Did I say Lightning killer?. Are you saying that this is no problem?

Now after you opened that Channel you would need to pay more than 7 usd to close it as you won’t be able to do batch closing

Plus for normal people with mobile Lightning wallets they don’t have ways to easily open 10 channels in batch

In addition each channel needs to be big enough now to manage safe closing

So please I understand your point but let’s put fanatism aside and be realistic in what we talk

I’m a hard core bitcoiner, love bitcoin, but don’t come and tell me that this is just ok

This is ok. We always knew that high fees would come, which is why we built Lightning.

Most people don’t need to open/close channels more than once a year, the stabler Lightning implementations become the less you’ll need to close channels.

If you think this is a problem you are deluded. If you use a credit card you have more fees per month than a node costs in a year. Just because you don’t see it on your credit card statement doesn’t mean you don’t pay it.

Man,

You are talking to the wrong person. I perfectly understand how LN works, have been running my node for years.

Worked for bitcoin for some time creating products for people

So please

A high fee market is unavoidable.. we all know that. I just hope that by then we have figured out how to add trustless solutions to it to scale without compromising security on l1

Having high fee market earlier than that will simply make most people use custodial solutions (even here we just know that it’s all custodial Lightning)

So I’m just hoping we find a way over y time to make self custody scale

Why do you keep talking like a FUDster 💩coiner?

Many people will chose custodial no matter the transaction fee for opening a channel.

But spreading this FUD while operating your own node is still orders of magnitude cheaper than using a credit card is just ridiculous.

We don’t need no enemies of Bitcoiners argue this badly.

This is caused by shitcoiners try to outshit each other while boxing other people out. You can pay $7 fees but a lot of people including merchants can’t. Think more than for yourself

It’s BS. Merchants pay $7 fees on just $250 card transactions.

Maybe ordinals is testing #bitcoin whether it can survive with any circumstance or not. If not, #bitcoin isn’t really a strong money as we thought, but if it survives with ordinals, #bitcoin is proving itself that it’s the strongest money ever.

I don’t understand why or why after so long you want to give another use to the #bitcoin network

Since I remember I have never seen that amount of fee, what kind of ETH is this becoming? 🫤

Whatever is happening en ETH it’s already happening in BTC. People is actually using BTcL1 for all kinds of meme coins pumps and dumps.

I just want to use the fee market for much better quality purposes and let all these things happen on other layers

Totally agree, BTCL1 should be used mainly for what was created, I’m worried about seeing some members of the Bitcoin community endorsing this.

This is also not sustainable long term, so no need to stress out

Yeah right somebody somewhere is printing a lot of $$$ to make this happen. Meanwhile, who wins? The big exchanges who can move empty numbers around in their own systems for nothing. Trading doesn't miss a beat while self-custody gets hurt. Just saying.

IOW saying I agree with you. I reckon somebody is emptying their war chest and it only holds so much.

Fashion is ephemeral. Just a question of time. Meanwhile, let them enrich the miners.

In 5 years the block reward will be 156.25M sats, which is less than the fees within these blocks.

Access to the timechain will be reserved for those who can afford it. When bitcoin is worth millions, getting a simple Tx confirmed will cost hundreds of dollars.

We need to figure out how to scale second & third layer solutions to 8 billion people, keeping in mind there literally isn't enough UTxOs for them all.

Getting monkey JPEGs off the timechain should not be our priority. They will disappear in time, but they are there because of the law of unintended consequences.