Discussion
Love propaganda memes. It's just enough to convince the ignorant of your driving point, but hides what the magician doesn't want you to see/know behind the curtain.
Confusing chart. The first one makes it seem like publishing all transactions by default is better with the ✔
Well if we are being uncharitable and cherry pick...
(1) Regarding the left side of your charts, you write that monero does not (red x) publish all transactions by default, but it does. Here they are: https://localmonero.co/blocks/
(2) Still on the left side, you write that monero encrypts the sender and the recipient, but it does not. If it did, you could name the encryption standard it uses for that. But it doesn't, so you can't. (Lightning uses the Sphinx encryption standard for that.)
(3) On the right side of your chart, you write that lightning does not (red x) encrypt the recipient or the amount from all nodes. It does. It uses the Sphinx encryption standard for that. Not even the last node in the route knows who the recipient is or what amount the sender sent.
(4) Still on the right side, you write that lightning does not (red x) hide your ip address by default. It does. Lightning wallets and nodes do not reveal their ip addresses by default. To reveal your ip address, you first have to set up port forwarding on the standard lightning port (or pick a different one), and then you have to make a choice: do you want to reveal your *real* ip address or use tor? Most people choose to use tor which is why over 70% of lightning nodes are on tor:
1) No, I'm agreeing with you that it does publish transactions by default. Reread both charts carefully.
2) No, I specified obfuscation on the first chart. For second chart (FCMP++) it will encrypt the sender based off ZK accumulators. I never contested that lightning encrypts senders. Again, did you even read my charts lol?
3) This is where I might agree depending on what you mean. Are you claiming nodes can't see the change in their channel balances when payments are going through them? Or are you saying they are unsure of the original amount that was sent? (because the receiver *could* be using AMP atomic multi-path payments, etc)
"Not even the last node in the route knows who the recipient is or what amount the sender sent."
AFAIK this isn't true, but open to being wrong if you can show me. Even though sender and intermediary nodes don't know, the very last hop knows the recipient (of course).
4)
>"...you write that lightning does not (red x) hide your ip address BY DEFAULT. It does..."
>"...you first have to set up port forwarding...then you have to make a CHOICE...Most people CHOOSE to use tor"
???
which one is it? Is it by default or not?
Monero uses dandelion to hide IP origin of a transaction from other nodes on the network by default - EVEN WITHOUT TOR
P.S. Is your conversation with Luke Parker on Seths pod still happening? I think both sides would learn a lot from it.
Re: #3, the last hop doesn't know the amount being sent because of multipath, etc., and he does not know the recipient because he does not know he is the last hop. Onions are padded at each step so that they are always 1300 bytes. So the last hop thinks he might be the first hop with up to 19 more to go.
Re: "by default," lightning nodes don't expose your IP address to the public by default because the only way that happens is if you (1) configure your node to route payments (it doesn't do it by default) and (2) choose clearnet instead of tor.
Re: the podcast, we recorded it a few days ago and I am excited for its presumably looming release. I made this chart in part based on things I learned while preparing for the de ate, like the fact that monero does not encrypt peer to peer traffic. Dandelion++ is nice but if several of your peers are fednodes logging all of your IP traffic they can learn a lot.
Ok, onion padding I'm assuming you're talking about BOLT12? I'll take your word for it. That's cool I didn't know that. Thanks for clarification.
Even if you aren't a routing node, how does the first node in a payment route not know your IP by default? I don't see how that is possible.
Yea, Dandelion doesn't encrypt traffic (didn't claim it did). You just can't be sure the transaction you are receiving originated from someone or if they were just another hop.
It's not perfect (neither is Tor), but Dandelion AND Tor is strictly better than just Tor.
Ok cool, looking forward to listening when it drops, thanks
Damn it must be Opposite Day today
For more details, I encourage readers to listen to this debate I had with Luke Parker (monero dev):