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I haven’t read any Rothbard. Is there a book you can recommend?

I’m specifically thinking of the essay “Justice and Property Rights”, which is available in a collection of Rothbard essays titled “Egalitarianism as a Revolt against Nature”.

Here’s an extended excerpt from “Justice and Property Rights” that I believe addresses your specific question:

“…in the case of an identifiable unjust owner and the identifiable victim or just owner, the case is clear: a restoration to the victim of his rightful property…

“Suppose now a fourth case, and one generally more relevant to problems of land title in the modern world. Smith is not a thief, nor has he directly received the land by government grant; but his title is derived from his ancestor who did so unjustly appropriate title to the property; the ancestor, Smith I, let us say, stole the property from Jones I, the rightful owner. What should be the disposition of the property now? The answer, in our view, completely depends on whether or not Jones’s heirs, the surrogates of the identifiable victims, still exist. Suppose, for example, that Smith VI legally “owns” the land, but that Jones VI is still extant and identifiable. Then we would have to say that, while Smith VI himself is not a thief and not punishable as such, his title to the land, being solely derived from inheritance passed down from Smith I, does not give him true ownership, and that he, too, must disgorge the land—without compensation—and yield it into the hands of Jones VI…

“But what if Smith I did indeed steal the land from Jones I, but that all of Jones’s descendants or heirs are lost in antiquity and cannot be found? What should be the status of the land then? In that case, since Smith VI is not himself a thief, he becomes the legitimate owner of the land on the basis of our homestead principle. For if the land is “unowned” and up for grabs, then Smith VI himself has been occupying and using it, and, therefore, he becomes the just and rightful owner on the homestead basis. Furthermore, all of his descendants have clear and proper title on the basis of being his heirs.

“It is clear, then, that even if we can show that the origin of most existing land titles are in coercion and theft, the existing owners are still just and legitimate owners if (a) they themselves did not engage in aggression, and (b) if no identifiable heirs of the original victims can be found.”

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Discussion

Sikto 2y ago

Thank you, I’ll give it a read!

The excerpt you have included above seems to read as squatter rights for thieves 😂

I’m probably taking it out of context and it will make more sense when read with his other essays.

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

> The excerpt you have included above seems to read as squatter rights for thieves

No. In no scenario can a thief be said to have title.

If the victim’s heirs are identifiable and living, then they get the property.

The thief’s heirs (who inherited in good faith) or, more likely, other people who later bought the stolen property (in good faith), only get to keep the property if the victim’s heirs cannot be identified or are all dead.

Sikto 2y ago

So you can steal someone’s property and your heirs can inherit it, as long as the the person you stole it from is dead, along with all of their relatives? This doesn’t make any sense to me, but I think I need to read the entire thing.

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

It’s a long essay, I’m paraphrasing.

Rothbard’s fundamental premise is the idea that each individual owns themselves and the property they create through their efforts. Nobody creates matter, we transform it, and through that transformation we create value. The sculptor doesn’t create the rock, but transforms the rock into a sculpture through effort.

For land, the mixing of one’s effort to improve and live on it is called homesteading. Rothbard’s homestead principle is that whoever uses/improves/lives on otherwise unowned land becomes its owner. No one else has authority over that land.

So if property (land or other) is stolen by anyone (the State, petty criminals or other), the property still belongs to the victim. That is, the victim holds title and is entitled to the return of the property.

As long as the thief and victim both live, it’s a simple matter. The thief must give back the property (and face possible additional punishment, which is out of scope for the essay).

The problem becomes more complex as you consider the thief’s heirs, the victim’s heirs, and, crucially, the case where the victim and all the victim’s heirs are either unidentifiable or deceased.

To your point, it sounds bad to say that the thief’s heirs get to just keep the property if all the victims’ heirs are gone. But what is the alternative?

In an anarcho-capitalist frame (of which Rothbard is a paragon) there’s no one else to whom to appeal. There’s the thief, the victim and their respective heirs. Anyone else is merely a disinterested third party bystander.

To get any other outcome, one would need to submit to a class-based society, where members of some class hold superior title. For example an aristocracy, monarchy or other State, which claims the right to adjudicate these kinds of disputes and who’s word holds sway.

In order to have a free and equal society without rulers (anarcho-) and with private property (capitalism), the least-bad option seems to be to have deceased victims’ property return to nature to be homesteaded/salvaged by the next person who comes along. In the unfortunate case of land theft that we’ve been discussing, that would be the thief’s heirs.

Sikto 2y ago

“For land, the mixing of one’s effort to improve and live on it is called homesteading. Rothbard’s homestead principle is that whoever uses/improves/lives on otherwise unowned land becomes its owner. No one else has authority over that land.”

This was the same argument presented in two treatises and was used by colonizers to “claim” what Locke defined as “unused” or vacant land from AmerIndians.

Others have argued that hunting and land-clearing certainly consti- tute use and occupation and, therefore, Amerindians have title to their traditional lands: they 'hunted all the country over ‘and for the expedition of their hunting voyages, they burnt up all underwoods in the country once or twice a year.

To circumvent this defence, opponents deployed the argument that only sedentary agriculture and improvement constitute the kind of use that gives rise to property rights and, therefore, hunting and gathering lands may be looked on as vacant wasteland.

It seems Rothbard believes the same thing and takes it another step beyond that and justifies the continuation of these claims. Which is convenient when dealing with a population without any written record of ownership, or who did not in anyway need to use the same institutions for record keeping.

I point out these things to highlight that these men whom many point out as heros for the sovereignty of the individual and personal freedoms, in fact used their definitions property to do the opposite of what they claimed to be doing. If we are to use their very definitions, one’s they used to asset their freedoms in Europe, then it’s difficult to see how they could justify their actions in the colonies.

jimbocoin 🃏 2y ago

Subjective appraisal seems to be inescapable. There’s no objective line between stepping foot on a patch of land, occupying it seasonally, and enclosing it with a permanent fence.

David A. Freedman touches on this inescapable subjectivity towards the end of “The Machinery of Freedom”. I don’t have the text in front of me, but the gist is that it’s subjective what one considers trespass. Somewhere between a single photon of light reflecting into one’s eyes and outright breaking and entering. There’s no objective standard.

But in any case I’d re-raise the question of what alternative is better? Suppose we reject Rothbard’s framing, that the thief’s heirs are homesteaders if all the victims’ heirs cannot be found. What ought to happen?

This is not a rhetorical question. What alternative framework would you recommend to solve the dilemma of historical theft in the present, where the victims’ heirs cannot be identified or don’t exist?

Sikto 2y ago

This is the question I have struggled with for a long time. I have not been able to answer it, but I do know that Rothbard’s is not good enough for me.