We do what we can. The thing is - there are technical limitations that unless you understand them, you wonāt understand why things are the way they are. To an outside we are dumb for not JUST doing x y z, but due to this being nostr, x y z is not so easy to do.
If someone has ideas, please share and tag #nostrdesign
We also have developer fatigue. They may not say it, but you can tell when the rate of development drops. No one is to blame though - this is very natural and happens all the time.
Having loads of open-source client choices is exciting at first, but after a while I think you end up with fragmentation. It would probably be better to have a small number of more feature-rich clients with more collaboration between the teams and roadmaps that are less scattershot.
Itās how the internet was built, wasnāt it?
Yes, and itās why we had to go through a consolidation phase. We can do that here but there isnāt the kind of capital investment at this stage to attract talent and pay them for their work.
There canāt be coordination and consolidation without capital investment? Too many competing ideas and interests and the money would incentive people to follow a plan? But then I guess the problem becomes whose plan gets followed?
Itās a balancing act. You do want people working together but you also want explorers. This protocol is wide open for discovery of new experience and itās great to have people explore. It also helps with the monotony of working on the same thing 24/7. Canāt forget devs are not machines - they get tired too.
Collaboration would definitely help though. Itās just less fun working on someone elseās thing than building the next exciting shining objects. In bootstrapped startups this is very common - jumping from one idea to the next and never brining the other to full life. It has pros and cons though. Sometimes you are working on a stupid thing and jumping frequently is good. Other times you jump too often to make the good thing great.
Some of this could be accomplished by funding the best projects and giving them the resources to work on them full time with larger teams, perhaps comprised of some of the independent contributors, but I get your point of how people donāt want to let go of their passion projects.
most devs that i've talked to don't really want to collaborate all that much. they want to build their own things and have full control over their own things, with others helping out from time to time. it's kind of the nature of the devs we have working in bitcoin and nostr :)
Very true, ive had my fair share of opensource pull request github commits closed because it wasnt good code or because it wasnt aligned with the project owner š probably bad code ā¦
Upwards and onwards š¤
I dont think its the nature of devs working in bitcoin or nostr, but the nature of devs period haha.
IT'S BOTH.
without experimentation we'd miss building the non-obvious stuff
but nailing the execution of the obvious stuff is absolutely fundamental.
This is fully understandable. Also itās a sweeping statement but very rare to find devs that can do both effectively (two sides of the brain at play here). Things have to work first though. Design and UX/UI can be applied after and it will evolve and improve.
Developers working in isolation without much if any thought given to design is how you end up with apps that only developers want to use, and the users you want to attract will reject after two minutes.
Yep šš¼
Weāre offering a lot of design help now and people take it. It just takes time to implement everything. If you have specific ideas or issues, let the design people know with #nostrdesign
Iām pretty adamant about bugging devs about things so if itās a great idea Iāll pass it on to whoever should hear it
Hashtag followed šš¼
Iām not sure nostr needs the generation of āflip phonesā to succeed.
The bigger question is how do we get kids to value privacy again, to value owning their data, and to value not being censored and in control.
The pendulum has to swing in this way right? At some point? If not, why would they bother to put up with the perceived imperfections?
100%. We have a chance to make social right.
Thatās not the point really. Maybe it was a bad example to drive my point homeāI hear you on that. But this could be confusing for even the younger generations of today. And I say that with a kiddo who built me a website at 7.
The point is that people donāt like to think. Iād argue that modern info shows that they like to think even less than they did several years ago due to lower attention spans. And when I say they donāt like to think Iām simply referring to the usability of an end product.
āThe bigger questionā¦ā Well. You create products that they want to use and once theyāre there then theyāre partaking in that information thatās currently being heavily censored from them. But until those products drive a desire to use or become more āuser friendlyā there will always be this divide.
I donāt have the answers. Iām just someone who tends to be good at breaking down complex topics for everyday people and itās only an observation from my end that this is still too complex for the average user and I canāt see how it reaches wide adoption like that.
With that saidāI like it. Iām not planning to go anywhere. I just was hoping to connect with people where I might be able to provide value by making this more approachable for people of all ages that are using social media today.
And for a different topic but since you mentioned itā¦I donāt value my own privacy. My data has long been out there for the taking and I canāt see the point in retroactively valuing it. Iām really open to hearing why I should and Iām wondering if more people tend to think like I do. If my mind could be changed on this topic then I might be able to help create change in this way.
Thank you for commenting and look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.
I agree with your points about people not wanting to think and that the usability is important, but with anything there are tradeoffs. If you have to sacrifice usability for an addd layer of privacy, or to be able to own your data and be in control of it, then people need to be taught to value these things. I absolutely hate all social media, but absolutely love freedom. Itās the only reason Iām here. Iām hear to tell stories and to listen to them. To connect with people and to debate the ongoing troubles of our time. To shitpost and laugh.
No one is going to use something that is more time consuming and complex, unless they know what they are gaining and sacrificing. Itās been an ongoing discussion here for over a year, and I think the best answer is that choice for the user is of the utmost importance. If one wants to simply use a Twitter clone, because itās easy, and give up added layers of privacy or control then that is fine. As long as the user is educated and understands the tradeoffs, then I donāt see a problem with it. So I think we are on the same page there.
As for what you said about your data, why not exist online in multiple domains/ways. My view is that one should be educated on how to exist online in a private way, so that they have the skills necessary if it were ever to become dangerous, or risky to have certain opinions/beliefs/ideas and to be able to connect with people to form a bulwark against invasive surveillance and control. It may get way worste and open and transparent ways of communicating may become a matter of life or death. I know it sounds hyperbolic but why not have that in your toolbox in case you need it?
Mentioned to Daniel that when I want to know how to simplify things Iāve built I let my kid use them. Sheās young but sheās nerdy and I assume is using and interacting with things like someone in the age group of my target audience. So whatever questions she starts asking is where I start with what I either need to improve or what I need to explain in a better way that she can understand it. Like if she were here I imagine her first question when I try to tell her what this isā¦
āWell whatās decentralization?ā And so Iād start there. Thatās the only point really is that if this can be broken down in a way that it appeals to modern internet users then theyāll come. If I were trying to spread information about NOSTR Iād not even mention decentralization. They do not care. Since I came here from learning about it on TikTok Iāll say how Iād approach bringing people over here from social mediaā¦āAre you sick of worrying about the TikTok ban or ending up in Facebook jail? Join NOSTR where you make the rulesā or just something like that. Itās more digestible for people who would otherwise be like āWhatās decentralization?ā Because the majority of people are gonna stop listening right there. Or stop listening when you say protocol. Thatās information that they do not need right now.
And so once you get them hereā¦the parts that they need to know also have to be as digestible for them, right? Like if you start fire hose to the face about relays and stuffā¦nope. Lost āem. So we have to go back to the drawing board on how we bring that information to the masses.
Hereās the thingā¦this is the result of the dumbing down of people. They wonāt give us the time of day if they canāt grab onto it in a relatable way in like 3 seconds. Theyāre scrolling on. And itās an unfortunate thing that itāll just take time to undo that. We canāt force them to think when theyāve had years of programming trying to make them not think.
Am I even making sense? If Iāve just lost you Iāll be happy to try to explain it in a different way. I know I can kinda go on forever. š¤£
Yeah I get your point. People are lazy and dumb, and need something easy to use š. I still donāt think they will stay unless they know, understand, and value what they are gaining by being here. I donāt think you need to educate them with the technicality of how it works, but they do need to value not being censored, not having to kyc, and that they can switch between any client and take their network with them. If they donāt care about those things then why stay?
I donāt care about any of those things. Not enough to stay for them anyway. And not because I donāt grasp why itās important to but perhaps Iām just too nihilistic to give a fuck. Lol. But I do like the community (so far) and would absolutely stay for that.
And I think you said it all really. āIf they donāt care about those things then why stay?ā And thatās kind of my point. Thereās no reason for them to even come unless theyāve found some alternative reason like I haveā¦and thus I canāt see widespread adoption.
In any caseā¦I do hope that people will come to see why they might need this in their lives. And that Iām wrong. Time will tell. š«¶š»
I donāt disagree with you. I hope they do too. š¤š«
