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Now you’re blaming central governments for things brought to you by the race to the bottom capitalist goods and services. I live paying more for shittier stuff to keep the shareholders pockets lined for creating absolutely no proof of work at all

Fred Johnston 5mo ago 💬 1

That's not the capitalist, it's the money.

Even if you make better stuff today, it won't sell - you are in a downward spiral created by fiat.

Read all of nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skueqpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqqgzr08nkh7nk4q9cmw02wkfprkgtk0n8kgszlzyqe384ll3qv5rp453f6g5h books and it will make sense. It's a deep read by "Principles of Economics" does a medium dive into this - not deep - but also not the first book on history of money someone should read.

Your perspective is a HUGE problem - because the solution is truly Capitalism with good/services - AND with money (private fixed real money, not fiat).

Study #Bitcoin - study hard - it's a once in a 1000 year opportunity. In a decade Bitcoin will grow with the productivity of humanity. First it has to eat all the misdirected capital (which is what you are frustrated with). And the growth is a 100X in a decade or two (sorta depends on how bad we mismanage the world fiat system).

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Discussion

GreyHood 5mo ago 💬 2

I’m fully aware of bitcoin and what it is. I’ve also read saifdeans bitcoin standard I believe right when it came out. I enjoyed it. Especially the bits about the history of money and its nature as a technology.

Unfortunately though, I feel the same way about your perspective. I defended capitalism for decades until I couldn’t anymore. I’ve also considered the argument that our current environment isn’t true capitalism. While I understand where it comes from I still see it as an appeal to purity.

If I remember correctly Ammous characterizes rent seeking behaviors as a negative feature of fiat which I agree with. However rent seeking is not exclusive to fiat currencies. Bitcoin is superior to gold in almost every way but gold is still a good money and most bitcoiners know it’s long history. That history includes gold as payment for rent. It’s clear to me that this rent seeking is not only enabled by capitalistic behavior but encouraged. Rent seeking and profit motives at the cost of workers is a feature of capitalism. You may find it ironic that understanding bitcoins proof of work mechanism is one of the main reasons that I now see capitalism for what it is. It inspires the non worker (capitalist) to extort the labor (proof of work) of the worker. It depends on extracting wealth from others.

The period between WW2 and the 70’s saw a shrinking wealth gap brought about by a hybrid economy of capitalism under a high amount of government regulation as well as strong labor unions. Reagan’s administration destroyed both of those driving forces that mitigated the rampant inequality of capitalism and now we see a wealth divide that seems like the gilded age 2.0.

The proliferation of fiat may very well have been the last nail in the coffin but at best capitalism exacerbated it but I suspect it is actually responsible for pushing us in the coffin in the first place. I do not refute that there a few benefits to capitalism, but the same is true for other economic systems like socialism and communism as well. The benefits definitely do not outweigh the costs. I don’t claim to have an answer for a replacement of our current structure but I’m quite certain I will never defend capitalism again.

Fred Johnston 5mo ago

"The period between WW2 and the 70’s saw a shrinking wealth gap brought about by a hybrid economy of capitalism under a high amount of government regulation as well as strong labor unions. "

That's what history tells us. But it's not exactly right.

In the 1800's (still a real Gold standard) we invented trains, autos, electricity, communications - it was the last big 'bubble' of innovation (driven by hard money).

As this efficiency worked it's way into the economies of the world the wealth gap decreased for nearly 100 years. BUT - politicians implemented this thing in the early 1900's called the 'income tax' (temporary I might add) that actually ROBBED the general population for the next 100+ years of that efficiency (which created poverty we know today - it's true - central government planning creates poverty, not solve it). In spite of the income tax, wealth gap closed and the the politicians did not steel ALL the deflationary progress. They did not have too, they got filthy rich - it was an epic run!

We are at the end of that cycle - we have been for 50 years (the US dollar actually would have collapsed in the 70's if we did not cheat and go off the Gold standard - which had been decaying for decades).

Follow nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcqpqs05p3ha7en49dv8429tkk07nnfa9pcwczkf5x5qrdraqshxdje9sgew2ua and read his book "Price of Tomorrow" - great read. Deep dive it. Go beyond just the book - as Jeff says we have NEVER lived in a true free market until #Bitcoin.

Conclusion. Capitalism created all you have today. Fiat has been stealing the benefits and funneling it to those closest to the money printer for decades. Deflation is the natural state of Capitalism and once the theft (taxers and printing) are GREATER than the deflationary pressures of real economic gains, the pyramid collapses (which it is doing right now).

The natural state of human innovation is capitalism - the exchange of (base layer here) REAL energy for REAL energy (you catch a fish I trade for a fur to make a coat - exchange of ENERGY).

Bitcoin will bring us back to that as it's real human energy maximizing time preference of money (which drives innovation). nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skueqpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqqgzr08nkh7nk4q9cmw02wkfprkgtk0n8kgszlzyqe384ll3qv5rp453f6g5h book "Principles of Economics" does a great job explaining this concept.

Also deep dive history of civilization. It seems like this has nothing to do with money but capitalism with a currency (real money, not fake) was the ONLY combination that created civilization. Without it, we would still be in packs of 150 people or so living off the land.

Fred Johnston 5mo ago

"The proliferation of fiat may very well have been the last nail in the coffin but at best capitalism exacerbated it but I suspect it is actually responsible for pushing us in the coffin in the first place."

You are correct, fiat was/is the nail in the coffin of capitalism - it did NOT exacerbate it, but ruined it (history shows it always does) - we have been straying from capitalism for decades - over half a century. Some would say since the income tax over 100 years ago. World War solidified fiat.

Capitalism is just the REAL exchange of human energy - something you have that I want and something I have that you want. A 'currency' is needed because what you want is not always what I have - so it allows our ENERGY to be translated to a medium of exchange. IF that medium of echange does NOT represent real human energy (which #Bitcoin does and Gold did it okay but was ALWAYS corrupted) than capitalism dies.

Hate to see people get mislead on the Capitalism issue - remember the Communists (collectivist) have been hammering on real capitalism for centuries. Why? So a few can control the narrative/people/production/power.