Ok tail emission is interesting b/c the lost coins topic is maybe the only part in the protocol missing… maybe in regards to coins that have not moved for 10 or 15 years they could be considered as lost… and then be reintegrated to the system…

Monero has less supply than btc… ? Not an pro argument, as long it’s supply is not fixed it will be like fiat.

What did you mean by brrrr-1?

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Monero issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW

Fiat issuance is centralized, unpredictable, and doesn't require PoW

Exact opposite of fiat

Ok, that’s cool.

Please explain so i can understand, if it is predictable, what is that rate new coins are being “released/added“ because there is no way to know the amount of lost coins to know the rate of the new coins that really have to be added to keep it a zero sum, limited cap.

To me this sounds like an inflationary or deflationary outcome, cause you could only guess by going by statistics which can also not really be determined, cause you will never know which coins are really lost.

For this to work the protocol has to be open in upside coin limit right, cause it is supposed to go on for ever.

Help me out to understand.

Let me chime in and give you a hand.

So the total coin supply in infinity time is not really a relevant thing. You think "coins minted forever means unlimited supply" but what's important to understand are the supply increase curves over time. There will never, ever be infinity Monero. Two infinities are not identical, it's the emission curve, the process, because you live in the process, not the end result at infinity years, which doesn't really exist.

There are two main type of non hard capped supply curves. One would be a linear emission, that is, set amount created every block. The second is a geometric emission, that is, percentage of existing supply every block (or time period, annually, say). Central bank fiat initially sold this promise, 2% per year or whatever. But that rule cannot be enforced, can be changed, and of course inevitably will be ignored. It went from 2 to 3 to "we will do what it takes to stabilize the currency" to now whatever they feel like. There's no predictable supply. But you could have a block chain that does have this enforced, I don't know of any that exist today but you could have a continuous emission as a percentage of supply.

So the curves of supply based on these schemes look very different, from each other and from their emission schedules. A 2% a year emission looks flat, but when graphed, shows a sharp compounding increase in coins, devaluing the currency relatively quickly, on the order of 50% every decade and a half, the math with this is the same as compounding interest. No good, it's predictable, that's good, but the devaluation picks up steam quickly and is long term not viable.

A linear emission, that is, a flat amount every block or period or year or whatever as a percentage of supply approach 0 as a limit, and interestingly, the number for debasement per second and per year and per block are the same number always with linear emission, that is, second/block/day/year 1 the supply increase is 100%, period 2 it's 50, period 3 it's 33% and so on, if the same emission exists from the start, Monero didn't start tail emission from day 1, some coins do like Grin.

The rate of decrease as a percentage of supply for a linear emission coin is geometric. The rate of *increase* in supply in a geometric emission scheme is exponential.

These are the traits of these schemes. Two infinities are not alike. So it's not simply capped supply = finite and continuing emission = infinite, the scheme for the continuous supply is what gives the money it's character. What's most important is that it is predictable and algorithmic, beyond that the different schemes give the money different properties. What properties? Well, I've got a write up in my public bookmarks from a few days ago about capped supply coins and their disastrous shortcoming, it begins with a deep breath if you wan to go read it, geometric schemes devalue within decades, linear emission schemes appear to be long term stable, getting you want you think you get with capped supply while solving problems with it, and fiat "do whatever we want with your money" schemes are of course slavery and nothing more.

Appreciate it, will check your bookmarks! Interesting! Thanks

I'm saying the amount mined is predictable 0.6 XMR every 2 minutes. Predictability = ability for everyone to account for that at any point in the future. You can't do this for the fiat money printer.

You can't really predict lost coins, perhaps only roughly, but that is true of any crypto including Bitcoin.

Thanks for your view!

How about this approach: in the case of btc coins are lost forever… then let’s suppose btc hits 10.000.000usd at some point meaning 1sat=10usd cents. So you could not reflect anything below 10c on the Layer 1 anymore, but on a layer 2 like lightning you could. You could even do this for 75.000.000 a coin or more. Wouldn’t this mean lost coins are not important, and miners can keep gaining via transaction fees on Layer 1 and 2 as soon as all coins have been mined? Also not a bad scenario or?

What you're saying is true I think, but that's all more of a side issue for people who argue against a hard cap on supply. The main reasons some are concerned is for the future security of the chain. When block rewards run out mining will depend solely on transaction fees (= very high fees). The security of the network could fall drastically because not enough users will be transacting on-chain (too expensive and because L2s will be better for that and way cheaper) to pay miners for it to be worth it. Someone still needs to pay miners to secure the chain. Layers are only as secure as their blockchain.

Thanks!

This new coin linear emission feature could be implemented into the btc protocol in 50-100 years, when miners and people start to feel that this is increasingly becoming a threat.

Correct? And the problem would be solved

With the current mindset of the community that seems very unlikely, but anything is possible. It would break one of Bitcoins most important memes if it does (21 million)

🤣👍🏻 ok great point also for the meme’s… but this seems to be a topic for the far future in btc terms… until then that mantra might soften.

Appreciate it 🙏