Please let's not start saying that ecash is self-custodial. It is not.

You hold the ecash, we get it. The ecash part is non-custodial, ok. It's been thought of that way since the 80s. It's fine to think that way if you're literally the central bank and the ecash you issue IS THE MONEY AND NOT A REPRESENTATION OF AN UNDERLYING ASSET – only a central bank can do this. Repeat with me: Only a central bank can do this.

Ecash today is a representative of an underlying asset. In Cashu and Fedimint that's BTC. You give up control over that underlying asset. You measure everything in terms of that underlying asset. It is all about the underlying asset. You have NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER TO REDEEM THAT UNDERLYING ASSET BACK – ecash systems the way we are building them today ARE CUSTODIAL – please don't make things more complicated than they need to be. Please do not manipulate language and especially, do not confuse noobs who are still learning. I almost want to say that a framing like this irresponsible.

What are you going to say to the noob who wants their Bitcoin back but the federation broke down during an update and the database got completely rekt? How is that non-custidal or self-custodial or whatever the opposite of custodial is.

With all due respect, this is a bad take.

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My read was that ecash is self custodial the way shitcoins are. Is that wrong?

Yes, that's wrong as well: Shitcoins are open decentralized networks. You can always run your own shitcoin node and move your funds. With ecash you can't just join a federation.

It’s a semantics issue. The custodian of an e-cash mint has a completely blind redemption obligation to an entire set of issued tokens. Compare that to an account-based KYC ledger where the custodian has individual redemption obligations to known entities.

In both cases, the custodian can default on its redemption obligation, but in one of them it can do so selectively and targeted, and in a limited capacity, and it can also be compelled by governments to do so. That’s very different than an all-or-nothing default of the mint.

I think these relationships are different enough to necessitate two different terms. Custodian and “guardian” I think is what fedimint uses, right?

As a noob who's still learning I agree this is confusing as hell. No big deal tho. That's part of the course. I'll get it when I get it.

Thanks for stating things loud and clear. The wording of that post was terrible.

Ecash is gold receipts for Bitcoin with better privacy. That's it.

Thanks for speaking out and clarifying!

#Klartext

I'm torn on ecash thx for note

He doesn't have a lot of good takes imo.

I love the discussion and the debate. Its great to read people thrashing it out love as we build. thank you

*live

Absolutely. It is not self-custodial. Almost nothing is 100% self-custodial. Even these gold teeth in my mouth can be pulled out without my consent. It would be useful to evaluate the risk of losing something due to the actions of others within a certain time period. For example, ecash has a 50% risk of being lost within a year. On-chain Bitcoin has a 0.1% risk. Gold teeth have a 1% risk, etc.

In my view, Fedimint and Cashu have different goals and can complement each other very well.

Cual es tu opinión?

right.. thanks for this.

I was looking at it as an IOWEYOU of BTC so ultimately, custodial, as you need to give them away for the token.. so still dont understand the hype around just because it "scales" better? 🤔

🖤 BlockMountain is full of scams. Encash is no different.