Nostr Web Client

The RSS piece is missing from all the Bitcoin Podcasting 2.0 talk I see.

If it's not on an RSS feed it's not Podcasting 2.0 and the other apps won't see it.

Podcasting 2.0 also isn't about Bitcoin and it's just a part of it.

Fountain has done a great job combining RSS, BTC and Nostr together but it's just them doing it.

I'm a PC 2.0 Maxi and a BTC maxi but the Nostr part doesn't care about RSS so I interest in helping build anything since PC 2.0 is podcasting 1.0 with new features like chapters, transcripts, funding, value, person etc.

Nostr might now get adopted by PC 2.0 but for it to have any chance it needs to be on a RSS feed.

That's the only rule. It needs to follow the podcasting 2.0 spec for RSS and then any additions can be proposed and maybe adopted.

All of these features that got added were just ideas that we added to feeds and apps played around with until it got flushed out.

Sounds like Nostr huh?

nostr:nprofile1qqszaqx80w9eg8uf39l527h8znumq0jcxdav2h0kdgwy08e3p87wfrgpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9u2cv5wh is a cool idea but nostr:nprofile1qqsxu35yyt0mwjjh8pcz4zprhxegz69t4wr9t74vk6zne58wzh0waycpzamhxue69uhkzarvv9ejumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7r8h0c5 also understands the PC 2.0 spec and that's why the feeds work great in PodvastGuru and other apps. I mentioned PodcastGuru b/c it does video the best.

nostr:nprofile1qqsr7acdvhf6we9fch94qwhpy0nza36e3tgrtkpku25ppuu80f69kfqprfmhxue69uhhq7tjv9kkjepwve5kzar2v9nzucm0d5hszythwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn99u8tudrl is also working on podstr but I haven't checked it out much and it's still in closed alpha.

Any of this stuff needs to follow the PC 2.0 spec for any of us to really care about it.

I might sound like a dick but it's just that simple. All of your favorite Bitcoin and Nostr podcasts that are in Fountain all have RSS feeds and that's why you can listen to them in any app.

Podcasting2.org does a nice job explaining this stuff at a high level and what I've been using to add features to my vibecoding apps.

We have people are here that will help with this PC 2.0 stuff but just like my coming to post this on Nostr y'all have to look in PC 2.0 also.

I hear tons of talk about PC 2.0 and Nostr are perfect together but I don't see any Nostr people stepping up.

I'm working with nostr:nprofile1qqswfa547pdmqkerzf2uen3agudc67wxffjmenqpge3dylc006fppyspz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduq3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwwpexjmtpdshxuet5ywlajy to see what his ideas are around using Nostr in podcasting 2.0 but it has to work in all the other apps too.

If Castamatic, Curiocaster, LNBeats, Podverse, PodcastGuru, Truefans, my vibe coded apps and others can't use it then I'm not interested.

Rant over 🫡

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Discussion

Derek Ross 3mo ago

Our open protocols allow us to be as interoperable as we want and build whatever we want. It's my hope that we use these assets to build the best experiences as possible for all.

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

Everyone wants to replace RSS but it's been working for 20 years and a bunch of non-Bitcoiners added Bitcoin to it 4+ years ago because Adam Curry thought it might work as a PayPal alternative and we were already sending him V4V support to No Agenda so this was just a new digital money.

My first use of Bitcoin. Was to send it to PC 2.0 before I even know what the stuff was because it was some next to test out to added to the V4V tool kit.

Sounds a lot like peoples first interactions with zaps on Nostr. 🧐

Derek Ross 3mo ago

Who wants to replace RSS?

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

The talks died down some but I heard it over the years but it was mainly the "we need everything on Nostr" talk so let's replace RSS also.

Maybe it was more we need to put the Podcastindex on Nostr because it's centralized which is true but we have some of the smartest dudes I know working on it and they can barely keep it one the rails while doing it for free and on donations only.

It's just an index that you submit your feeds to that's apps and services pull from. It's to replace the Apple one that all apps were using before and it does that.

It's your job to maintain your feed. You host it somewhere and people can mainly add it to their favorite app.

That's how it worked before apple added podcasts.

Click this orange RSS button on my website and add it to your app of choice.

Funny enough that hasn't changed.

My favorite podcast Bowl After Bowl post the show Wednesday mornings after doing it live Tuesday night and editing it after. It's on the website before the index and apps so I often download the mp3 from their website to listen to on the way to work while they get the RSS stuff done.

Sorry I'm rambling so much but vibes are high for me right now and talking to Oscar last night has the juices flowing and I need to collect my thoughts and typing them out helps.

TLDR RSS is great and always has been so give it a sencond chance if you're reading this. 😁

Chris Fisher 3mo ago

Just to be clear, Oscar's spec here still uses the Podcasting 2.0 valueblock in the RSS feed.

The big change, is instead of the metadata coming via Keysend (at the lightning level) it would be delivered via Nostr, as the lnaddress spec does not support including all the metadata needed for a boost/Zap.

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

Yes Oscars does but every other "podcasting 2.0" thing here doesn't.

nostr:npub196qvw7utjs0cnztlg4aww98ekql9svm6c4wlv6sug70nzz0uujxsprafme does and in fact I added a PR to it that gets the lnaddress from the Nostr profile and adds it to the channel level value tag and it works in all the apps that support lnaddresses like PodcastGuru, fountain and Castamatic. Gigi even added a PR to get the nodeid for a profile (that mine has) and add that as well and it overrides the lnaddress of you have both.

^^ that is what we need in the RSS feeds imo. Let me add keysend first and lnaddress second. Then the apps can choose what they want to support.

Chris Fisher 3mo ago

I think some key context when reading this is:

1. There is already a active Podcasting 2.0 Boost community, that existed before Nostr and Zap. This is not something being invented today. This is about modernizing something that has been around since the early days of Lightning.

2. Keysend has not been widely adopted outside of Podcasting 2.0 (it's NOT a P2.0 tech, it's a lightning thing) and if we want to grow the base of users who can Boost/Zap a podcast, we have to move beyond Keysend.

3. lnaddress, and the email format for payments is an obvious UX improvement over node addresses, and opens podcast Boosts up to the entire Lightning ecosystem.

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 3mo ago

#2 is key. We are losing PC2.0 podcasters because the value returned is dropping off. Nostritches love to zap but only if its relatively convenient. With keysend only, you're excluding the majority of what would otherwise be your fervent user base.

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

If Alby didn't change its business model we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Everyone switch to Alby years ago and now you have to pay so PC 2.0 took it out back and killed.

This has been Fountain and Alby this whole time and I love them both and I use AlbyHub daily to support podcasters and musicians because it's always worked but I had to build a node while I away put off because I couldn't send from it with 2.0 apps until AlbyHub and I've never been happier.

I even have nostr:npub17w7592g67helr3qv53ddyf55vj4hnxttxtd8368d92u3zyds3ejs0x40jx that post said Boostagrams to Nostr so we're playing with stuff but it's the same stuff that's worked for almost 5 years.

That said podcasting 2.0 is an open spec .

PodcastindexOrg.org has all the data and you can access it with an API key.

That's how I built itdv.podtards.com

You can just build stuff...

ps I'm just jaded but willing to help ;) talked with Oscar last night about this stuff.

Chris Fisher 3mo ago

Even if Alby had kept easy hosted wallets around, no major lightning wallet supports keysend.

And when you consider what’s easiest for podcasts to give out on air Lnadress offers a familiar email address format.

To be clear, I think it’s a real shame Keysend has not seen more love.

and… it’s a shame lnadress is not Bolt12 ready which also solves some of this.

But there is a hard reality we are up against. We are down to just Fountain and Alby compatible apps that can boost.

Ironically fountain could just sit back and do nothing and they pretty much consolidate and lock up the entire boost market because they probably already have about 80% of it. They’re pretty much the last easy lightning wallet for boosting in town.

And for the listener, it’s a lot less of an ask if they can use any lightning app that supports LNaddress to support the show. They could use strike or other apps directly even.

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

The value tag supports lnaddress so anyone can use that in their feed.

You can even add something to your funding tag like nostr:npub1jcympy69pht7ptan39se4nd09e4q66qhey649uu3rczm2zh88c7s0n2890 does.

They have a Monero link there that I use all the time.

https://xmrchat.com/ugmf

We need more options which is my whole point.

Chris Fisher 3mo ago

Actually, this is the problem.

You can do it, but there’s several huge disadvantages right now and I don’t think most people realize it.

Important Metadata podcasters need to credit supports is missing, just not even captured. And importantly to me if you’re self hosting a node, it gets even worse and anyone in the split doesn’t get any metadata.

When you receive the boost, you have no idea the total amount, and the most situations you won’t even know who sent it. It depends on all of the systems between.

It currently only works in very limited situations.

I’ve been testing this the hard way with some of my shows, and it was a mini disaster. Even though I’m a big proponent of using lnadress I had to roll back to using my node address/keysend for now because of all of the shortcomings with the current implementation.

Being able to properly credit people who support the show is a vital and important part of the value for value cycle - that is fundamentally broken right now with the current lnadress implementation.

If the current implementation sees wider adoption, it will destroy boost for podcast. I don’t say that lightly, you probably know how critical this is for my shows.

I think some key insights that I have here that maybe others are missing is that I run multiple shows at scale that are funded by boost. Multiple episodes of my shows are often in the fountain top charts each week. I’m not bragging. I’m just pointing out, it’s significant us.

We self-host our entire infrastructure.

And we build tooling around boost, so that way we can properly credit those who supports us.

And I’m a big supporter of other v4v podcast and as a listener, I boost a lot .

So I really been looking at this for all angles since about December.

If I could go on the podcasting 2.0 show every week and yell that we have a problem here I would! I think a lot of people are missing this because they’re not quite as deep into the technicals .

Technically lnadress is supported. But it’s a disaster in its current implementation and limitations.

It also reinforces centralization because just look at the practical implementation so far. Fountain is the easiest and most complete implementation. Even using Alby Hub the experience is sub-par. You will get the stats. And your SOL if you just want to run your own node and lnadress.

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 3mo ago

Ok so just taking a snippet of what you're addressing here. Let's assume lnaddress is widely adopted across the ecosystem, that still leaves us with the Metadata issue. Is that accurate?

Just brainstorming but seems like from there the solution has to be client side... lnaddress payments do allow for a text field. The client could potentially autofill this with the essential Metadata such as sender, client, show, and track/timestamp when generating the invoice. It would take a meeting of the minds from major clients to implement but could be done i think?

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 3mo ago

Feel free to tell me to stfu if I don't know what im talking abt (cause I prob dont) but if its too much data... is it possible to create a service that hashes the essential Metadata so its small enough to embed into the lnaddress memo field? It'd be a workaround but the node operator could somehow export their receipts and the service can translate?

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

Correct. Currently the metadata is in the keysend payment. Switch to lnaddress and the metadata field is there but much smaller. Oscars idea is to use Nostr to transmit the metadata basically separating the message from the payment.

The apps need to implement this and the podcaster/musician needs something to receive it which was Chris's issue when he switched.

This is why we've been talking about this issue for 3 years but the AlbyHub change really broke the system since that was what non Fountain apps used so to use those now you need AlbuHub.

Oddly enough Franco from Castamatic was on the PC 2.0 show and said the AlbyHub change didn't really impact the amount of people using his app to Boost shows. I don't know how many people do that in his app but that's an important data point.

We also had Boost before we had Boostagrams. Lightning payments were sent way before they had a message attached so if we lose them for a few months so be it.

The message is a key part of V4V but if you not getting a lightning payment then your not getting a message in my book.

Nostr also isn't the only proposed solution to this.

Sam Sethi at Truefans.fm is using ActivityPub to try and solve this.

Alecks Gates proposed something called metaboost that you add a url to your RSS feed and the metadata is sent there for you to do with what you will. (This is just a proposal)

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 3mo ago

While there may be other implementations, some of which may even be more efficient, I'd explore Oscar's solution as utilizing nostr also activates a significant potential fan base and that's not to be an overlooked advantage.

Also, in open protocols, optionality, to a degree, is important. Would implementing lnaddress mean deprecating keysend? Why not both?

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

I think it does but I don't see people giving it up. It's your RSS Feed after all.

I want both and that would solve things but apps need a way to support that also.

I want to say "hey I prefer keysend but here's my lnaddress as well"

Sir Libre 2w ago

So I haven't read all of this hell thread so bare with me. (I will read it all eventually)

Next week's episode of the v4vmusic podcast will be entitled "The Case For Keysend" where I will address much of what is being discussed here.

Albeit with my own bias, of course. 🙂

I am not a nostr hater nor am I an lnAddress hater, but I do believe we should be using the right tools for the right jobs.

https://v4vmusic.com/?album=cmixpr0vk00f0od0igxv4g9q2

ChadF and 33 others 2w ago

That one is 3 months old btw. It’s just Oscar’s proposal for the Nostr-metadata solution that I added some commentary to that I like to repost every now and then.

StableKraft.app supports that proposal btw minus some of the zap receipt stuff but all Boosts in SK that post to nost have the PC 2.0 GUIDs in them and even show up in Fountain.

I realize I’m adding to the hellthread even more here but the root post for this is Oscar’s proposal so it’s a nice time capsule.

BITwise 🐳 >>= RIGHTish 3mo ago

Metaboost sounds like it would work well with nostr. Assign an npub pointed to a specific relay and Metadata simply posted as notes. Metaboost simply acts as bridge or client for users to pull the nostr data. View as native client or bridge to node.

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

Oscar's proposal lets apps post the metadata to relays to then be pulled down.

I'm working on zaps.podtards.com that post to nostr:npub1k34lqqeqa90e269gtw4r5z3h0hgejj9hnf8lpkmc2jzq5tl2ru8qqkwhjf.

Works with Alby since the addresses in the feeds are keysend but I'm working on adding other stuff to help the 2.0 devs see this in action.

ChadF and 33 others 3mo ago

I agree but we picked keysend 4+ years ago because it's lightweight and I don't see any better solutions.

Basically all RSS feeds have keysend still so it's hard to test stuff which is why I made this.

https://podcastindex.org/podcast/7405721

For the Posterity 3mo ago

I've only been posting material to mainstream platforms: Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Rumble. I would love to figure out how to interact with what you're speaking about, I'm just no familiar. If anyone would like to help me out, I would welcome it.

satCummins 3mo ago

Agreed.