Replying to Avatar ChipTuner

I'm speaking out loud because you provoked a thought.

> It insulates those who have it from the consequences of suboptimal choices and beliefs.

I don't know that it's fair to associate wealth as the prime mover for poor decision making. Enablment sure, cause no.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I find similar sounding arguments based around this premise:

I could be equating different arguments here, but I don't think I agree with a well shared premise of suffering as a fundamental feature of existing, and often suggested to be required to achieve fulfillment. I don't agree with the idea of endless suffering. Using that premise a start to suggest that I want to end suffering, and use wealth is a means to that. I've heard many religious arguments equally affirm and oppose the "endless suffering" really as a point of view. How does one define suffering?

I want to build wealth to insulate me from the poor decisions that others make that will affect me without my permission or vote. I want the ability to make decisions because I have the opportunity to do better, not because some unfortunate situation made me choose the "lesser of two evils". Of which there is no such thing, evil has no quantity. Not to say these situations will never occur, but wealth as an opportunity to reduce it as much as possible. I'd like to think most people who grew up poor want a life where their decisions aren't made for them because they can't afford the alternative. I think many of us watched are parents die young and work their health away as a sacrifice so the children don't have to make that same sacrifice for next generation.

Simply stated, I'd like as much opportunity as I can to be in control of my decisions or opportunities because I worked built wealth, not because I didn't have a choice. I'd want the same thing to grow for my next generations as well, but I do understand that there are consequences that could be related your argument, I would describe as waste. No one likes a daddies money son for example, who's father insulated them from the tragedies that the majority of humanity must endure. Which is the exact point of view I'm trying to highlight.

Because the majority of humanity does not have the wealth to reduce the suffering of health, education, early death, healthy children, mostly safe environment, community and so on, does that mean it's a permanent fixture? Don't we call this progress now?

I wonder if were creating bridges between some meta and reality that don't exist, or need to exist in these arguments.

I was not saying that wealth causes poor decisions, I am saying carries a risk of masking mistakes. Plainly some level of wealth is desirable otherwise the consequences of mistakes are fatal. The question is how to maintain learning in the absence of suffering.

The short answer is that you can't, you can only change it's form. Without some form of suffering there is no information about when fundemental limits are bring exceeded. We can handle this in a few ways.

The first method is to transform potential suffering into education. People who have not encountered a painful limitation can be informed of it's existence. But education is itself a form of suffering. We inflict the pain and discipline of education on our children so they can avoid the greater pain of starvation.

The second is to change our understanding of pain. Pain is nothing more or less than information about our body's interaction with the environment and with itself. It is information loaded with negative emotional content to motivate us to move. Tragic suffering is only pain not accepted.

That isn't to say that we should want to be in pain, it indicates a condition at odds with nature that should be corrected, but we should be very grateful for pain and the information it contains.

So yay wealth and yay health, they are goods, but they don't come free.

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There isn't anything I could disagree with there. I just don't want the idea of suffering to be the default. It's there, and something that must be accepted, but always working to reduce it, not hide it. So i entirely agree with your problem statement

"The question is how to maintain learning in the absence of suffering."

I think reducing suffering is better understood as a desirable consequence of helping people become more fully alive and in tune with their nature, for example the practice of medicine restoring lost or crippled function. You really don't want reduction of suffering as a direct goal. The only way to fully eliminate potential suffering is to eliminate potential sufferers.

This isn't an academic exercise, there are whole classes of people whose goal of minimizing suffering ends up concluding that we must therefore kill people or prevent them from existing in the first place.

> This isn't an academic exercise, there are whole classes of people whose goal of minimizing suffering ends up concluding that we must therefore kill people or prevent them from existing in the first place.

Fantastic point XD

> I think reducing suffering is better understood as a desirable consequence of helping people become more fully alive and in tune with their nature, for example the practice of medicine restoring lost or crippled function. You really don't want reduction of suffering as a direct goal. The only way to fully eliminate potential suffering is to eliminate potential sufferers.

Yeah I think Im trying to highlight on the "point of view" part of suffering. Many people are willing to share their opinion on the idea of the cycle of suffering as a whole, but not define suffering from their point of view. Well we can all rally around the idea of making "life easier" but what does that actually mean? What struggles are necessary for a healthy and fulfilling human existence. I suppose religion is the largest attempt to answer this, if posed as a question. I guess this gets into strange scientific territory in my brain because now I see an optimization problem XD