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Alan ₿

Name a specific example.

BTC_P2P 9mo ago

Grotte de Font-de-Gaume

Lascaux cave

Rouffignac Cave

Chauvet Cave

Gila Cliff Dwellings national monument

Chaco National historic park

Bandalier National monument

Aztec ruins National monument

Petroglyph national monument

I could go on and on and on.

There are hundreds of museums dedicated to various stateless native societies in the United States filled with tens of thousands of admired and coveted native artifacts such as tools, wardrobes, textiles, pottery, weapons and culturally significant items.

Is it more impressive that the Roman’s left behind aqueducts and amphitheaters but only managed to maintain their society for 1000 year or is it more impressive that the Cheyenne Indians had a contiguous society and culture that lasted many multiples longer but didn’t leave behind massive stone structures? They did still leave behind beautiful and unique items of all kinds. It’s a subjective choice between the two, but longevity of society is a factor.

Centralized societies have a much shorter lifespan. They also seem to have lower typical quality of life per capita as the subjects productivity is used as fuel for the rulers vision’s through violence and coercion.

Imagining American society today, and what will be left behind in the event of collapse, is a good thought experiment too. Most of the buildings here wouldn’t last more than a century uncared for. There will be a lot of garbage and plastic and toxic seepage. I see no honor or longevity in most of western societies of the day. Trash people and throw away societies with nothing of cultural significance that will endure. In that respect, many native societies of the past are much more respectable than today’s modern “civilized” societies.

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Discussion

Alan ₿ 9mo ago

These are mostly primitive cave drawings. I prefer sophisticated, advanced civilization.

BTC_P2P 9mo ago

Again, moving the goal post. Your initial post asked for example of “stateless utopias” to which I responded that utopias don’t exist. There is no example of government utopia either. But there are many examples stateless societies that were quite durable and interesting where inhabitants had high quality of life, were fulfilled and healthy.

There are also thousands of examples of governed hell on earth nightmares.

Your point wasn’t made. It was disproven with real world examples both showing that stateless societies can work quite well and are more durable than their centralized criminal syndicate counterparts and that governed societies are less resilient, can’t function for as long due to inbuilt weaknesses and almost always regress into murderous police states fueled by sociopaths and carried out by useful idiots.

Alan ₿ 9mo ago

I’ll take imperfect citadels over perfect cave drawings any day.

BTC_P2P 9mo ago

Yeah while your children’s future is being burned right in front of you. Where are the citadels in America? America is a garbage country who leaves behind nothing but strip malls and fast food chains. Antithetical to inspiration.

I know you can’t contend with the facts I presented, so you retreat to fictional platitudes.

Alan ₿ 9mo ago

You are free to go live in a cave somewhere with other anarchists.

That’s about all anarchists can accomplish without coordination.

Your heart is in the right place. And I respect that. But you are deluded.

BTC_P2P 9mo ago

If only Mao, Hitler and Stalin had been benevolent. So close.

Kayne 9mo ago

Mao was.

Liberated Tibet, gave power to the peasants.

Kayne 9mo ago

Ancient people didn't live in caves.

Most of them lived in tents made from animal hides.

Caves were used for social occasions or rituals

Des Imoto マキシ 9mo ago

How will we organize after hyperbitcoinization?

I’m wondering what our society will look like in the future. I’ve posted before thoughts about why large centralized democracies don’t work. So, in the vein of decentralization, we may end up moving toward small communities, tribes of like minded peoples in the pursuit of their happiness.

Which led me to look at how American Indians organized. They seemed to, within their tribes, live so harmoniously amongst themselves and with nature.

American Indians organized many decisions around family units and tribal councils. One way to illustrate how it works is to look how American Indians disincentivized bad behavior.

Now probably the first thing to know about Native American history is that there was very little crime. Perhaps crime and punishment go with Western Industrial-type nations. Historically, travelers to the outermost regions of Native America commented on how honest and how little crime existed.

So what did they do if one of their own committed a “crime”?

Firstly, there were no jails. Secondly, while all tribes were different, in matters of severe offenses, the family or the clan usually dealt with the offender. Often the person guilty of the crime was “sentenced” to go away from the tribe and try to make it on his own — which in the long ago past, was almost a testiment to a death sentence. In the Lakota tribe there is a reference in the book, WATER LILY, about the offender having to make restitution with the family by taking a role in the family. Usually such people were so happy to not be put out of the tribe, that they became the best family members of all. Imagine if this were so in our society today? That the offender had to make restitution with the family for his acts? What do you think might be the result? Less crime, perhaps?

In the Creek society, as well as the Blackfeet, the crime of adultery (for women only) was a cut off nose — the tip of the nose. This was usually performed at the request of the offending husband and was done by the society that he belonged to.

As far as stealing is concerned, it was almost unheard of. George Catlin remarked that in all his travels in Native America he had never had one single thing taken from him, or even a hand lifted against him. In truth, one young man made quite a journey to join Catlin in order to return to him some of his property. However, if stealing had been done, the offending party again made restitution with the “victim” by supplying them with whatever they needed in return. Seems a much simplier process, doesn’t it? Make up the damage one has done to the person who has been harmed, himself.

Besides almost non-existent crime, there was also no poverty. Some people were more prosperous than others — such has always been the case amongst a people. But noone went hungry when there was food to be had within the tribe, nor did anyone go without.

And if a culture is known by its humanity towards others and the material condition of its people, then I would have to say that American Indians were, indeed, a culture to be proud.

#Bitcoin. Fix the money, fix the world.

#Bitcoin. It’s the only chance we have.

Parts extracted verbatim from CRIME & PUNISHMENT — Native American Style

October 14, 2008 by Karen Kay

Alan ₿ 9mo ago

Much like we did under the gold standard.