Replying to Avatar DataNostrum

Interesting points nostr:npub1h8nk2346qezka5cpm8jjh3yl5j88pf4ly2ptu7s6uu55wcfqy0wq36rpev, I appreciate your approachable style of thinking through these ideas. I agree with much of it, but here are a couple of weak points IMO:

1) The Black Friday analogy does not make sense to me. A big reason why people spend a lot on that particular day is because prices will go up again immediately afterward. People are anticipating a rise in prices after Black Friday, whereas in deflation, people anticipate a continued decrease in prices. Not the same situation.

2) You are mainly considering the consumer's point of view. If stuff is cheaper, that won't make me buy less - I agree with that. However, the producer's point of view also shifts. If I am a producer of goods, I have to be careful to only produce what I know I can sell soon, because I don't want to be stuck with deflating goods that I will end up selling at a loss. In other words, while the demand for goods should not be affected downwards (rather upwards if anything, as you point out), the supply of goods likely would be affected downwards. It's not obvious to me which of the two effects is stronger, if any.

One could certainly argue that deflation should result in generally better product-market fit, as producers are more careful to produce goods that they know they can sell. On the other hand, it could reduce their risk appetite, and hence have a diminishing effect on innovation.

1. Like you said, the only difference in the Black Friday example is the price decrease is sustained over the long run, versus perceived as temporary. But all this does is slow down the effect, not change it. When the economy is driven by savings, and not debt, people spend when prices fall.

— Again the underlying framing is forgetting that prices ONLY naturally fall for extended periods because of growth. Meaning the idea that it prevents or halts growth & spending is just fundamentally backwards. Our entire capacity to consume is derivative of our capacity to produce. If we produce more, we will consume more. At the end of the day it really is that simple.

— Also we need to understand the difference between savings and debt spending. When prices fall and we have savings, it creates what’s referred to as “The Wealth Effect.” Things we have wanted, but we’re going to cost all of our savings, are now available if we only use 1/3rd of our savings. Which makes it suddenly viable to make the purchase and not put yourself or family at risk. The wealth from the price deflation is exactly what encourage people to spendOn. We evens see an exaggerated version of this in #Bitcoin. When the price shoots up, people who’ve had BTC savings makes tons of purchases at BTC companies. Nobody buys shit during the best markets.

2. I frame it from consumers because that’s what Keynesians argue. I’m countering their nonsense directly.

— Actually the opposite of your concern with producers occurs. The short term mindset and aggressive “sell as fast as possible” mentality is what happens when all production is funded **with debt.** because they are financed, they can’t think further out, they can’t just pause and wait for a higher quality, or longer term production option. They need to sell immediately and in great quantity.

— When savings is what drives the cycles, producers are far more scrutinizing about their investments being high quality. If they aren’t producing long term value goods, that will be worth the cost of a valuable money, then they DONT waste resources on it.

——— understand this is a fundamentally CRUCIAL incentive. Because the normal deflation is the *average* of growth that’s expected from all other producers. Meaning wasting resources on below average goods and services is actually *destructive* to the creation of value. Less value is created than if they did nothing, and left those resources for someone else. It’s a literal miracle that we have this coordinating mechanism that lets us know how productive our resources have to be. This ensures that only the most valuable, longest lasting investments, with the most clear or potentially massive consumer demand & benefit actually use up our scarce resources.

Lastly, there one more extremely fundamental point that negates both concerns. Which brings us back the the “thermometer” understanding of deflation: If any of those concerns play out… prices don’t fall. Again, this is the most important thing to internalize — the prices fall BECAUSE of growth. So ANY concern you have over it stopping growth, is immediately negated by the fact that the price deflation doesn’t occur if those examples ever played out. They don’t as I hope I explained, but even if they did, it wouldn’t matter because the price would reflect exactly that change.

The economy is literally just a giant balancing force against supply and demand, and it works shockingly well if the money is actually stable in supply. It only breaks down when we cheat the accounting system and our absolute to communicate is poisoned by a bunch of counterfeiters.

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Discussion

1. The difference I pointed out is w.r.t. to future outlook, not price as compared to the past. The argument by detractors of deflation (AFAIK) is that people have an incentive to wait before purchasing a deflating good, because they know it will be cheaper in the future. By contrast, in the Black Friday example, people know the good will be more expensive in the future especially in an inflationary setting, so in that sense it is IMO not a good example for countering this argument. I agree with your rationale on everything else.

2. You make an interesting point about debt, and growth. Could you share your reasoning on why a typical starting business would take on less debt in a deflationary system (assuming they don't have much starting capital)?