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If you want to know how far religious nationalists will go in pursuit of what they believe must come to pass, read the book of Joshua. Not only does it document serial genocides and recount that history as "good", Joshua 1:18 quotes the people answering Joshua's command with "Whoever rebels against your word and does not obey it, whatever you may command them, will be put to death." Yes, that is right, irrespective of the command no matter how illegal or vile, the supporters of the god-nation will kill anyone who disobeys the state.

No, that was not a quote from the Quran.

Did you hear about the time when a reasonably friendly group wanted to "lie with" Jewish women, and the Israelites told them they needed to be circumcized first? and they all got circumcized at the same time, and 3 days later when they were in the most pain, the Israelites went in and slaughtered them all?

Or what about the time when they said they were attacking Hamas underneath a hospital, except that the proof was a complete joke and easily rebutted, and so what actually happened is that they simply destroyed an enemy hospital? Yep, that just happened.

By their deeds you shall know them.

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Discussion

nobody 2y ago

#content

CensorThis 2y ago

Joshua old or New Testament?

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

old

CensorThis 2y ago

The old god was an angry god

Brunswick 2y ago

Genesis chapter 34, the entire chapter

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

Also, if Palestinians didn't believe in god, they would be FAR more civil, much less willing to yield to "gods will", much less willing to martyr themselves.

Morality is a complex game-theoretic system of behavior and signalling that keeps us all civil, and it is not at all easy. There are no absolutes, but moral actions bring about consequences. Feeling "this is all too much" and playing life on "easy mode" by believing in a god and doing what the Chursh says just yields all your capability and power to someone else who will most likely abuse it.

Brunswick 2y ago

Shurch organization morality is mostly comprized of guilt-extortion money to pay utilities and mortgages. It also funds the virtue signaling tropical vacation-missions that justify nonprofit status and the majority of the revenue goes toward the pastor's private household of homosexual horrors.

pam 2y ago

the origins of 10% tithes came about to support the welfare of the church - in fact in countries like in Iceland in the 1500s if I am not mistaken, it was only 1% which got the people to agree, but churches accumulated enough wealth to buy the lands of the countries. Missionaries went in for a few decades in Africa, Caribbean, Asia etc and established infrastructure, schools, influenced young minds before global colonization of the west took place. And before that, and the separation of church and state, God was the Kingdom, and all was one. Fast forward to today's times, churches that have larger, richer congregations are filthy rich, and many abuse it - but this is not the same for all. There are many others that's separated from politics and wealth, provide some anchoring and baseline for people to rise and safety net when they fall. But religion can be easily interpreted into anything you want and manipulated no doubt.

Brunswick 2y ago

The entire concept of church hierarchy and the idea of a pastor living on tithes is grotesque and a continuation of old testament ceremonial law. Being a priest is not a profession, but our tax law presumes it is, and one tax exempt. Im all for paying less to the government, but paying to a church is just sending it to a more intrusive and self inflicted government. Don't get me wrong, I give the benefit of the doubt to those pastors that believe in their concept of mission and calling, but the way they do it is counter biblical and inherently corrupt.

The Callnote 2y ago

whose the one whose gonna cast the first stone, cause the only one who could won’t .

pam 2y ago

The Bible has a lot of interesting tips and tricks - I mean Queen Esther slept with the king to get what she wanted, and not just that, she slept with him first - and with men being men, rocked his boat for 3 days, got completely on his knees - before getting what she wanted lol.

But it's also important to understand that the Bible was written when war was crude and brutal, times were different then. Knowledge was not power, only physical ability was. Even the old testament and new testaments are 400 years apart. So our learning and understanding of applying the Bible is often interpreted to today's time and era. In fact, Christian origins of denominations differ based on the country’s culture and way of practice. These days, anyone can have access to bibles, diff revisions, languages and interpret it compared to the Roman days

Torah and Quran are very much based on the old testament, and have lesser modifications and interpretations compared to the Bible. But there exist liberals and conservatives, diff ideologies, prophet's interpretations, cultural influences, political influences etc.

It’s tempting to simplify, but it's way more complex than that

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

I was raised a Christian by my mother, and she believes the Bible is the word of god and perfect. When we got to the story about the tribe circumcizing themselves and then Israelites slaughtering them 3 days later, I knew it was morally wrong. Nobody said so, not the church, not my mother. but I knew it. Because morality doesn't come from god, it comes from within, from circuitry we evolved with. Sometimes there were some handwaving arguments, but I was a smart kid. So when I got older, these various handwaving arguments about this, about god even existing, they all fell away as I became an adult.

Brunswick 2y ago

Jacob did not support his sons killing the tribe, they disobeyed their father and broke his agreement. The entire story was demonstrating how his sons were rebellious and it was setting up their self-centeredness when some of them tried to kill Joseph.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

He didn't like the fact that it created enemies, and says so clearly in verse 30. Didn't say anything about the injustice of it. Verse 2 doesn't make clear if their sister was raped, but their response sure does. So killing Shechem was fine by me. But to make friends with the whole group, and then slay all their men who put trust in you? Horrid.

Maybe the entire story was demonstrating that nobody should ever trust a Jew. That's the message I took from it when I was young and didn't have clearer saner ways of thinking about people as individuals and not as groups.

Brunswick 2y ago

Jacob was being a weak ass pussy to his sons, not standing up to them. It is a disgusting chapter, I agree. Firstly, it says in verse 2 that Schechem was the prince, and his father had significant influence over the people. It also said the agreement to circumcise was made by the Jacob's sons and it was done deceitfully (Gen 34:13) and it was all a ruse. The Hivites also were motivated to circumcise themselves for financial reasons (verse 23) so their reasoning wasn't exactly altruistic. Their intent behind circumcision had nothing to do with a covenant with God, and these people would have obviously polluted the family given the most upright person among all the Hivites would defile a virgin. The dealing by Jacob's sons was dishonest, the hivites were immoral people, and Jacob was a puss for letting them act deceptively no less letting his daughter marry into the people.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 2y ago

Your charge of immorality comes from one accusation of defilement. But in the old testament, the rules about who can sleep with whom under what circumstances are not agreed upon between different cultures. This is starting to sound like The Game of Thrones R+L=J. Maybe she fell in love with the prince.

Brunswick 2y ago

I interepret the story as her wanting to marry the prince, thus Jacob's aquiscence. The initial act was likely concenting. However, ultimately, it was Jacob that failed to watch over his daughter and permitted the circumstance to happen. The defilement accusation is my interepretation of the brothers' actions, not mine. There likely was also a percieved fundamental incompatibility between the groups, and offer to intermarry was only part of the ruse on the part of the brothers.

LuisSP 2y ago

OT is not about a rainbow world, not even an ideal but possible world.

Old Testament reminds us that the normal humanity state is eternal tribal genocide, sometimes with larger or smaller tribes.

that we have risen, partially, and temporarily, above that, is a hard achievement, which is also hard to maintain. And Christianity is mostly responsible for that.

The difference Bible x Koran is that OT is not always normative. Just because OT Jews did shit, it does not mean we have to follow, or that they are an example. Even WHEN the violence was justified in a tribal context (and a lot more violence is necessary for them), it does not mean it is just for us. The Church is there to interpret the Bible anyway.

But in the Koran, every act of violence was performed by the perfect man leading the perfect state, the example to be followed to the letter until the end of the world.