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Majority of the shills don't have the same ethos. They keep attacking #Bitcoin for many reasons. Like using ASICs, while knowing very well their shirtcoin can be attacked BECAUSE it's running solely on CPUs and (many of them don't even know this, on) GPUs.

This gonzo guy claims that Coinbase or another fiat gate can block a #BTC transaction to get exchanged for fiat. Yet forgetting to mention that Coinbase already block 100% monero transactions getting swapped for fiat. That's something a scammy shill would do to pump his bags.

I do a similar thing but using LN. Do you know why I prefer that? There's no need for a third party to exchange it. Just open a channel, drain it to another wallet(s), bring it back on-chain.

Also, and this is pretty important, monero (or any other "private" shirtcoin) writes every single transaction to the chain, FOREVER. That's quite long time. If/when a quantum computers become a thing, these blockchains will be readable.

Yes, we will have to upgrade #Bitcoin and everything else but all these blocks will be open to everyone for chain analysis. Except a solution that doesn't require a chain - #LightningNetwork.

This is something, none of these shills will tell you that. Nor they will tell you about the time, the transactions before RingCT.

TLDR: implement into your "laundering" strategy an extra step - the LN. Just in case. Don't trust random shills.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

ASICs have their own weaknesses. CPUs have their own weaknesses.

Your Coinbase example is exactly why Monero is fungible and Bitcoin isn't. You to allow it all, or allow none of it. In either case it is fungible with any other Monero coin. While Bitcoin is split into tainted and clean coins.

Your argument about teh conequences of writing to the chain forever applies tenfold to Bitcoin. It is completely exposed. *Right now*, not in some hypothetical future™, Monero completely hides amounts with ZK proofs and uses stealth addresses to hide receivers on chain. If quantum computers become a thing, that vulnerability is not unique to Monero.

You can actively monitor and probe most Lightning Network activity and save all that data to be used later to be quantum cracked as well. Not very different. While what you're saying about staying private on LN is true in theory, most LN users don't transact that way (ignorance? UX hurdles?). They are not concerned with privacy (Phoenix wallet). Additionally even more aren't concerned with self-custody (~90% WoS, Chivo, Bitcoin Beach). Lightning has better default privacy than on chain, but *right now* it is not better than Monero.

We can use DNMs adoption as a simple metric. No one uses Lightning. Monero will soon dethrone Bitcoin on there where privacy is priority #1 and everything is at stake

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Discussion

Secretary Janet Yellen 2y ago

"ASICs have their own weaknesses. CPUs have their own weaknesses." - correct. Not many monero shills will say that. As well as not many will agree how easily it can be 51% attacked just by using the hardware, the governments already own.

"Your Coinbase example is exactly why Monero is fungible and Bitcoin isn't. You to allow it all, or allow none of it. In either case it is fungible with any other Monero coin. While Bitcoin is split into tainted and clean coins." - My Coinbase example was about to show that blocking a transaction at a fiat gate doesn't mean that #Bitcoin can be blocked. Read the whole thread if you want to jump in.

Also, learn what fungible means: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fungible

One BTC is always one BTC, no matter what some fiat gate thinks. The sats on the network (outside fiat) are still worth the same.

"Your argument about teh conequences of writing to the chain forever applies tenfold to Bitcoin." - applies the SAME to every blockchain out there.

"It is completely exposed." - It's not. Again, learn how #LN & #Liquid works.

"*Right now*, not in some hypothetical future™" - this isn't a hypothetical future, monero DOES write every single transaction on the blockchain RIGHT NOW. We just don't know WHEN it'll become readable.

"If quantum computers become a thing, that vulnerability is not unique to Monero." - have I applied it would?

"You can actively monitor and probe most Lightning Network activity and save all that data to be used later to be quantum cracked as well. Not very different." - there is a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. In LN "you can". In Monero, "everyone does" hold all the information already.

"While what you're saying about staying private on LN is true in theory, most LN users don't transact that way (ignorance? UX hurdles?). They are not concerned with privacy (Phoenix wallet). Additionally even more aren't concerned with self-custody (~90% WoS, Chivo, Bitcoin Beach)." - correct. Privacy on LN is achievable to the same level as in monero. That was MY POINT, exchanging to a shirtcoin is pointless if I can use #Bitcoin - the absolute digital scarcity. What's wrong with Phoenix Wallet? Have I missed something?

"Monero will soon dethrone Bitcoin" - lol, every shirtcoiner says exactly the same.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

"In economics, fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are essentially interchangeable, and each of whose parts are indistinguishable from any other part."

Bitcoin has unique histories, therefore is distinguishable from other bitcoin, therefore is NOT fungible.

A wiseman once said: "You don't ask nicely that everyone else not spend your coins; You just protect them using a cryptographic key.

Similarly, you don't ask nicely everyone else not distinguish your monetary units; You just make them *technically* indistinguishable AKA fungible."

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/

*Right now* you cannot derive amounts or recievers on Monero. Senders is the weakest layer but is still probabilistic (~6% chance). I can actively probe LN and save that data if I wanted. You think chain analysis and governments are not doing that right now? Those who want to CAN do it. Remember, you brought up onchain vs offchain not me! It is nice to be ephemeral, and I would want both, surely, but I think it makes little difference in practice vs an active adversary. Encryption and ZKPs are more improtant.

How do Bitcoiners become Liquid shills? It is permissioned and trusted. It also only has 1 of 4 of Moneros privacy tech. And no one uses it for good reason! Pathetic anon set too. Far inferior tool for all these reasons.

Phoenix wallet is non custodial, but neither private nor trustless. They say so themselves. You aren't running your own node so naturally this would be the case it shouldn't be surprising.

Ok, ignore Wallet of Satoshi, Chivo, and Bitcoin Beach (the major ones)...But you are right technically! Blue Wallet is not custodial because they ended offering custodial lightning in April! LOL!

https://www.btctimes.com/news/bluewallet-will-no-longer-support-custodial-lightning-wallet-services

From 2020 to 2021, DNMs offering Bitcoin went from 98% down to 91%. Monero jumped from 45% to 79%. I showed you a clear and massive trend. Take a wild guess where things are at now in 2023.

Secretary Janet Yellen 2y ago

One sat in the network is still worth one sat therefore FUNGIBLE.

*Right now* EVERYONE collects all information on the blockchain for a disaster to happen.

You can connect your own node to BlueWallet. LOL?

I like BTC times too. Here's one link for you:

https://www.btctimes.com/news/the-irs-is-paying-developers-to-crack-privacy-of-lightning-network

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Yes, on the protocol 1 btc = 1 btc.

But in the practice, in the real world, where people can discriminate based on visible unique histories 1 btc =/= 1 btc. We live in the real world not on the protocol:

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/#the-fungibility-graveyard

How many of those Blue Wallet users do you think run their own node based off that list? Lol. But okay whatever you can have the 100k Blue Wallet downloads. What about the other 1.6 million custodial downloads?

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf

Secretary Janet Yellen 2y ago

Sorry, this was done a year before Taproot activation. Keep up

Secretary Janet Yellen 2y ago

I'm not saying people are NOT using custodial #LN wallets. Just pointed that things changed. Triggered much?

"The real world" do you mean fiat gates? I don't live there and you're already second monero shill that cares about the exchanges way too much.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

If you're admitting the vast majority of people are using custodial LN wallets, then the vast majority of the LN network isn't private. ...Yes, I am extremely triggered 😂

When did I say anything about exchanges? It's not just about exchanges. Click the fungibility graveyard link and read thru it unless you are scared of the truth. Spooooooky!

Secretary Janet Yellen 2y ago

If you're admitting the vast majority of people are using centralized exchanges, then the vast majority of the monero network isn't private. - that's exactly what you're saying.

What the real world means for #Bitcoin if not fiat gates??