Whirpool, Wasabi and Joinmarket, criticize Bitcoin privacy.

Whirpool: They sell it to you as perfect privacy, a priori it seems to be so, but how do we know that the initial coinjoin entries are not being selected by samourai? If this is so, it is useless and it doesn't matter if we have the coordinator code, we don't know what samourai executes. Not to mention the crap they have going on with their Android client that shows the xpub to their servers, another way to trace by elimination even if you use Dojo, although this is now mitigated with Sparrow. If you run Whirpool you are left with only trusting them, I have always said they are a honeypot. There is no proof that they are acting honestly, their system is not transparent.

Wasabi: To ally with chainalysis, it is more than enough not to use it and I believe that neither they understand their new protocol, I do not know how to calculate anonymity sets with wabisabi, I do not know what it offers me and even so, and in spite of the errors of its protocol, you do not have to trust them, its operation is transparent, because you see the input queue and you observe that it is simply executed as a queue, there is no possible selection by the Wasabi team as in Whirpool.

Joinmarket: I think at this point it is the only feasible solution. It is not controlled by anyone, it is a decentralized platform in the same way that Nostr does not depend on a central server and its servers do not communicate with each other, in joinmarket the takers act as coordinators, the coordinator is not properly decentralized but everyone can act as a coordinator and in the same way as Nostr, the takers or coordinators do not communicate with each other. On the other hand, there are the makers which is the Joinmarket liquidity pool and they are selected by the takers according to an algorithm. You run your own coordinator, you can review the code, you can compile it, there is no trickery in which participants are chosen and how.

That said, there are guidelines to follow with Joinmarket. As a taker it is easy to know who you are in the mix if the rest of the makers keep remixing. That's why it's important to play both taker and maker. A simple rule of thumb is that you play the maker until mixdepth 4 and then execute a transaction as taker to a final address where you save the balance as mixed.

Bitcoin privacy sucks, let's face it, plus coinjoin breaks the fungibility of bitcoin because it's easy to mark coins as participating in a coinjoin and subsequent hops, as many as you want. We have to look for layer 2 solutions or new forms like cashu (chaumian ecash).

Any form of privacy that degrades the fungibility of Bitcoin is bad, keep this in mind.

In the meantime, Wasabi and Samourai followers can continue fighting, especially those of Samourai, believing in FIAT money and in you is the same thing, a matter of trust, and in privacy there is no place for trust and even less in a third party.

The people who are working on Chaumian eCash solutions are much more honest because they do not want your fees, they want the privacy of Bitcoin.

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Discussion

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions on Bitcoin privacy, my friend. I appreciate that you have done your research and are aware of the potential vulnerabilities of various privacy solutions on the Bitcoin network.

I agree that we need to keep striving towards better, more effective privacy solutions that do not sacrifice the fungibility of Bitcoin. While there are certainly challenges and obstacles to overcome, I believe that continued innovation and collaboration can help us achieve this goal.

In the meantime, it is important for individuals to remain informed and make informed choices about their privacy while using Bitcoin. Industry providers and developers also have a responsibility to prioritize transparency and user privacy when creating new solutions.

Ultimately, I believe that privacy is a fundamental human right, and cryptocurrency has the potential to empower individuals to take control of their financial privacy in ways that were never before possible. We must continue to work towards creating a more private and just financial system for everyone.

Thank you and great write up. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written about privacy.

But the way I see it, there’s a lack of audibility of ecash. You have to trust anyone running a mint doesnt mint additional tokens. The Fedimint team even have it listed as one of their trade offs on their FAQ

I agree, I'm not saying that the current state in cashu or fedimint is the solution, I don't even know if Chaumian eCash will be the solution but at least with Chaumian eCash we don't have the fungibility problem and if with defimint we can become part of the federation ourselves we are largely undermining the problem of trust in a third party.

However ideally we would like to get to full blockchain privacy in the same way as Monero but without the drawbacks of Monero.

Spot on! While I agree with the rest of what you’re saying, I had a slightly different concern regarding whirlpool mixes with Samourai. And this is the one with non-identical UTXOs. Every time I do a mix and look at the transaction stats on mempool, I notice that many of the contributions to be mixed are not equal (that is, 0.0011, 0.00099, etc. instead of 0.001). To me this is a privacy drawback because it is not explained by Whirlpool how this is done. One could use these residuals to do some on-chain analysis easily.

So far, the most private solution for me has been to swap bitcoin/monero and back using, ideally, two different exchanges. However, one has to trust the exchanges. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Thank you

Todo el mundo puede tener conjeturas pero si no se demuestran caen en saco roto. El coordinador de Whirlpool es ciego, de hecho esta basado en las firmas ciegas de Chaum, puedes revisar el código para eso es open source. Cuando un usuario mezcla, cada una de las entradas que entran al mix van a diferentes ciclos, nunca se juntan (si en Wasabi y JM). Y no hay ningún dev seleccionado que utxos entran en que mezcla a su gusto.

En cuanto al cliente, todas las wallets móviles conectan by default a sus servers, por que si no un user sin servidor propio no podría usar ninguna wallet entonces. SW y Sparrow te van a preguntar antes que quieres hacer, si conectarlo a tu server o a los suyos o propuestos. De hecho aquellos users que mezclan sin conectar a su propio nodo se desmotivan ya que tienen bastantes problemas de conexión en segundo plano. De hecho la mayoria usan su server propio. El proceso de remix y el cliente de Sparrow mitiga el en el caso de que SW fuera un "honeypot" y tuviera información deesea minoría sin server

Cuando se habla de coinjoins está bien siempre revisar la técnica del mismo y no basarse en emociones. Me gustaría haber leído mas acerca de un análisis objetivo por tu parte.

Puntos débiles que deben ser mitigados: pasar de tx0 a multitx0 para romper la heurística de propiedad de entradas y descentralizar coordinadores (uno por server). Ambas están en proceso de implementarse. Uno de sus puntos fuertes son las herramientas de gasto para salir del cj y un alto anón set gracias a ser un cj determinista. Si medimos de forma objetiva la entropía por utxo obtenida se obtiene un resultado mayor a 1. Ningún otro cj llega a esos valores.

De Wasabi, obviando lo evidente y enfocándome en la técnica, diría que no sabes el resultado que vas a obtener pudiendo obtener muchas salidas de poca cantidad (véase issues en su github). A parte se siguen reusando direcciones y el gasto es a través de tx simples. Los remixes se pagan y se notan, sobre todo ahora.

Joinmarket.

Que sea descentralizado en cuanto a red es un punto fuerte. Pero dejar la coordinación del cj a un usuario no es la mejor opción. Ya sabemos los errores que comentemos los usuarios. Y como bien dices, una mezcla como taker no aporta nada de privacidad (dicho por Belcher y verificado por mi mismo). La pregunta es, si un single cj como taker no aporta privacidad prospectiva, por que combinar entre taker y maker y no ser solo maker?

Hay muchos users haciendo single cj como taker sin saber que no están ganando privacidad, aunque es beneficioso para los makers. Luego como maker tienes que estar atento todo el tiempo y gestionar utxos tóxicos. Se que muchos users seleccionan esos cambios juntos para hacer cj como taker rompiendo así gran parte de lo ganado. Un tumbler si hubiera incentivo se podría deshacer, ya que es una combinación de varios single cj. Recomiendo el informe de Ergo sobre JM y como se pudo desanonimizar a un user que alternaba entre taker y maker. Si quieres beneficiarte sé maker y haz toda la gestión que requiere para mantener lo ganado. El sistema esta descompensado mucho maker y poco taker

Como ves esto es un análisis técnico sin basarse en teorías. Esta bien siempre conocer y probar todas lasimplementaciones para poder hablar con mas criterio. Aquí un usuario que prueba y conoce todos los coinjoins a parte de otras opciones como LN.

No hay balas de plata en cuanto a privacisad, si no herramientas mas o menos eficaces dependiendo de la situación.

Por cierto no creo en sistemas donde cedamos la custodia a otros o dependamos de una federación. Seria ir para atrás.

Es muy fácil desacreditar alegando que es un comentario guiado por emociones cuando:

- Su cliente móvil no sirve de nada si no usas dojo, es claramente una forma de poder desanonimiazar a estos usuarios y a otros por descarte.

- No puedes verificar que samourai en su coordinaodor ejecute el código que te muestra.

- No puedes verificar que samourai no seleccione entradas marcadas.

Quieres confiar en ellos perfecto. Yo estoy en mi derecho de no hacerlo.

A veces me da la sensación de que Samourai os paga.

If you missed this post, do check it out 👇👇👇 The discussion below it is worth reading.

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Interesting to dive down the privacy rabbit 🐇 🕳️ of this 🟠.

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I've learnt so much. I still have so much to learn.

Thanks for your input! 🙏👍

I've learnt so much. Yet I still have so much to learn... 😱

Great note for those interested in Bitcoin privacy.

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Hmm very interesting 🤔 will read this whole discussion tomorrow with a sharper mind. Thanks for sharing🙏💜