I just gave you a little hit of dopamine, and even a little more by reposting, enjoy
(See how that works?)
Discussion
Lol thanks for the hit
For those who serve mammon, the effects of zaps are far more potent than of likes and shares. It goes beyond just a feeling of acceptance by others; when a cryptard receives a zap, they feel a rush of power due to receiving more of their idol bitcoin, even if it's only a few cents.
If psychologists weren't so busy trying to convince men that the right thing to do is chop their penis off and pretend to be a woman, they might have some interest in studying the mainstream Nostr crowd.
Who is mammon?
Interesting point about the rush of power.
I would love to see an anthropologist/psychologist comment on the mainstream nostr crowd.
They’re programming themselves to zap above all else. Losing all nuance and renouncing real interactions. Making everything entirely one dimensional. And it seems they haven’t actually thought through the environments bred by zaps.
Seems ironic to care so much about financial freedom to then renounce their neurological freedom and create a central zap authority.
Also. I didn’t get a response to what I thought was a good set of points to get some discourse going. Unsure how to interpret that.
Well, I am concerned that the developers of the clients seemed to lean hard on censorship as soon as someone applied some pressure.
Really? What happened?
So a lot of new ppl from the fediverse joined recently, and some of them are autistic spergs that like to push the limits. One of them made a rape threat and it caused a lot of drama.
The devs started talking about shared block lists and stuff like that. The iris dev removed his verification on iris.to and the damus dev said he’d ban him from his relay.
Anyway, my concern is that the client devs aren’t really considering what effect their actions will have on the network as a whole.
They’re not considering it at all. The discussion I brought up was taken as a personal attack.
It appears the people building Nostr only care about their own egos and not how this project can continue to scale.
I hope this changes.
What is the fediverse?
Is there any way I can see that conversation or thread or whatever?
I agree that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of actual discussions about the fundamental philosophies of what they’re building and how to build in ways that uphold those philosophies. At least I haven’t found any but I’ve only been here like two days.
I also don’t know if different devs have different underlying philosophies but I’d really like to see manifestos or something. And it would be cool if real conversations were happening around these in order to make them truly reflective of their values.
I assume some sort of client market will emerge and that people can use the ones they feel aligns with them and their priorities. Some only care about user experience and some actually care about free speech.
Do other clients have client agreements? I’ve only tried Damus and it has one.
The iris dev removing nip verification seems harmless. I guess a rape threat goes against his terms of use. And from what I understand the user could get nip verification elswehere.
Shared blocklists I fully disagree with.
I’ve seen some people sharing relays that are committed to free speech so that’s good.
And it’s unfortunate that you raising some issues were taken as personal attacks.
There’s obviously a lot to think about. I don’t know if anyone is taking time to meditate on what they’re building.
Are there thought leaders? If so, who are they?
it is scaling but it could scale much better, they need to get people off from depending on only a few relays
i think this is good as it hightlights nostrs weak points
What’s good?
Oh, that this happened? Yeah, it’s going to happen more and more.
i hope devs make better solutions
there is not many users here maybe?
Who knows. I thought the person I was responding to would respond.
they have probably blocked you, such is the weak minds around here
Victor? He did. There are actually a lot of ppl here tho, most are just NPCs.
No mcshane.
Victor had some great input.
Sorry if I missed something, I'm using Iris and it's horrible for actually following up on conversations. It seems to be designed around conversations that last no more than 15 seconds, which I assume is the average attention span of the average Nostr user.
All good. I wasn’t talking about you. You’ve responded.
I’m having a really hard time keeping up with conversations too. I’m using Damus.
The zap system discourages posts like that. Only vapid posts that instantly get a point across that the reader implicitly agrees with get zaps. The trend is toward pithy, uninsightful positive reinforcement. It's a bubble-creating machine.
For now. That can and will change
It is intrinsic to the system, it cannot change.
What is your vision for it?
If you want a vision of the future, imagine two bots exchanging proprietary shitcoins back and forth forever.
Me or him?
I’m new as well and learning.
We’re social creatures and we’re sheep. We’ll always gravitate to a huddled mass of Kardasians and Hiltons blowing their way into likes and vast wealth.
Zaps can also be used for those with brains to support others with brains.
Nostr Substack,Nostr news, Nostr Nobel Prize.
You.
Thanks for sharing. Will respond later. Getting off my phone now.
Enjoy. Chat soon
>Zaps can also be used for those with brains to support others with brains.
They really can't.
Hi. I’m back. I’m going to take a stab at responding:
(1) We’re social creatures and we’re sheep. We’ll always gravitate to a huddled mass of Kardasians and Hiltons blowing their way into likes and vast wealth.
I don’t know what you mean by this or what it has to do with zap culture. Could you clarify?
As an aside I’ll respond conceptually: It’s true that a lot of people (probably the majority) gravitate towards the Kardashians. Are you saying this mass behavior enables their fame? If so, isn’t that bad? It is also true that an important minority of people are repelled by whatever cultural phenomenon they represent. The dissidents, punks, independent thinkers, etc. I consider these people to be crucial and I generally identify with them. I would much rather support them.
Again, not sure how this is relevant to our original discussion of zap culture but I’ll offer it anyway.
(2) Zaps can also be used for those with brains to support others with brains.
This I don’t see. The statement itself is vague and a generalization so I actually don’t really understand what you mean. But I’ll respond to what I think you mean. There are countless ways for people with brains to support each other. I would say that the biggest reward for a person with a brain is to be engaged with, to be challenged, to collaborate in building something or in advancing ideas together or in solving problems together. I don’t see how a zap achieves any of these things. If people were throwing money at Socrates when he was giving speeches and exposing his ideas, I doubt anything intellectually/philosophically fruitful would have come of it. Einstein refined and ultimately proved his theory of relativity by corresponding with a contemporary. This is far removed from zap culture. My read on social media is that it has generally made society stupider. Shorter attention spans, obsessed with external validation, wasting their attention on extremely superficial things, fueling consumerism, losing discernment skills. Zapping seems like an extension and an amplifier of this and more.
(3) Nostr Substack,Nostr news, Nostr Nobel Prize.
Again. How are any of these made fundamentally better by making zaps part of the equation?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Zaps are payments.
Instead of 10k likes, if each like equals a penny, that’s now 100 dollars.
People will be paid for likable content. Whether it’s onlyfan models or builders.
Content creators will be paid directly, instead of through advertising.
I understand what zaps are.
I have no issue with people being paid for content.
I have an issue with zaps being used as a metric to judge the quality of the content or the quality of people.
Why?
I already wrote a lot about this. I think it’s at the beginning of this thread.
So many reasons.
A worrisome one is that if the default is for the content/people with the most zaps get the most visibility/credibility/worth it becomes incredibly easy for financial elites to take complete control of which ideas are collectively deemed worthy and true. It becomes easy for them to control the culture, the narrative and push whatever agenda they want.
That doesn’t make sense.
Ok. That is ONE issue. What doesn’t make sense TO YOU?
I’ve shared a bunch of other concerns/arguments against zap culture.
How long have you all been zapping? Can you point to any concrete examples that back up your own arguments?
This app is like 5 days old. Everyone is excited about zapping pennies because it’s novel. That will wear off and it’s true use will show itself.
This truly doesn’t address anything that I’ve said
It addresses everything you said if you can think bigger, for just a moment.
Extrapolate out.
>Extrapolate out.
As I have said to ten billion trillion million students (it feels like:)
Show your work.
I have.
Instead of telling us to "think bigger," think bigger yourself then type those words out. We can't read your mind. Make your own arguments for yourself. Show your work.
I have. Just go reread my comments throughout.
TLDR:
We need a Nostr for the core 80-90%. Something that allows for civilized discussion without disturbing rhetoric to get in the way.
We need to do this without blocking dissenting voices.
We also need to allow for the fringe voices to be accessed and to flourish when their views stop being fringe.
Zapping will allow for creators to be paid for creating, not for catering to advertisers.
Many will get rich from being Insta-hoes, while many others will get rich from providing: news, data, relays, badges, and a million other things that haven’t been created yet
You’re assuming alternative social networks are going to catch on and become mainstream. I don’t think that’s the case at all lol.
That 90% is happily posting their frivolous nothings on Twitter, so it’s concerning that you’re happy to encourage a system that marginalises politically incorrect opinions. A lot of ppl leave the mainstream platforms to escape that.
I say to the 90%, good riddance!
I’d prefer if more normal ppl were here tbh, but the 90% doesn’t really have any opinions worth censoring so why leave Twitter?
Social networks were a 2000s-2010s fad and they will be increasingly less common and more niche until they are just gone.
Completely disagree, ppl love attention.
Are you actually unable to see how pathological it is that you can’t scroll the tl without seeing something about zaps in practically every post?
If it was just a tipping system, that’d be fine. But it’s literally the central topic of discussion.
That’s very different.
Think bigger.
Please describe to us your amazing big vision?
Not with you while you’re being cunty.
I expected more from you. Resorting to personal attacks is completely useless.
Are you attempting to punish me by withholding your vision from me?
If you had an actual vision that you were excited about and could describe competently, wouldn’t you want to share it with the “cunty” people who actually have no idea what you’re taking about?
This is my second time asking you to describe your vision. I already addressed your first response too.
You started with the personal attack, I simply volleyed back.
I am a banker. I wish to subvert NOSTR? What do I do?
Easy. Zap a bunch of people to make them my suckups, then start concern trolling "Hey guys I think we need some censorship don't you think?" 500 zaps 500 shares
The problem is that you think it's "likeable" content that will be rewarded, as though that's a sig of quality. Banality, uncontroversialness, positive reinforcement, these are the things that will get zaps. That is not a sign of quality, but conformity.
Ok? That’s a sign of the human condition. It will always be that way. The masses are sheep and will be herded.
The difference with what Nostr can become is that the non-masses can never completely lose their voice.
Unless the non-masses collectively decide never to zap you, and the masses never read something without 500 zaps.
That has been and always will be rewarded.
Now quality can be rewarded as well.
#[9] this is the vision. Extrapolate out.
I really don’t think we’re going to get anywhere here.
Agree to disagree.
Small minds will stay small unless exercised to expand
So excercise can make things bigger? I need to add something to my workout routine. But what? 🤔
You’re saying I have a small mind?
You said we’re not going to get anywhere. I said what I said.
No one's getting anywhere because you're refusing to make your case beyond platitudes like just saying the word "vision" with zero context.
That was a yes or no question
It wasn’t a yes or no reply.
Yeah that's a problem. You're being obstinate because you lost an argument and refuse to take an L.
What argument did I lose?
The one in this thread doofus.
There was nothing to lose in this thread, doofus.
Just a lack of constructive dialogue so I shortened any commentary I’d provide.
Literally everyone in this thread was constructive except for you.
"Just get vision!" is not a constructive argument, it's a cult slogan.
When tied into my previous comments it’s more than constructive enough.
There was a lack of real engagement to my comments. “Uhhh I disagree” doesn’t count.
Basically it refers to material wealth and possessions. While money itself is not necessarily bad, the people here are so consumed with a lust for money that most will refuse any other conversation.
Thank you.
"Mammon /ˈmæmən/ in the New Testament of the Bible is commonly thought to mean money, material wealth, or any entity that promises wealth, and is associated with the greedy pursuit of gain. The Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke both quote Jesus using the word in a phrase often rendered in English as "You cannot serve both God and mammon."
In the Middle Ages, it was often personified and sometimes included in the seven princes of Hell. Mammon in Hebrew (ממון) means "money". The word was adopted to modern Hebrew to mean wealth."
in the future trannies will zap docs to remove their cocks