Nostr Web Client

Nobody is arguing that napkin math isnt a sounder guarantee.

But it is intellectually inconsistent to bitch about ZK proofs when you are ALREADY trusting cryptographic primitives that are more complex.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

That would be intellectually inconsistent except I never complained about zk proofs. I don’t even know what that is lmao all I’ve said so far is that I’ve seen my tx inputs and outputs balance out. I have firsthand experience of supply soundness in Bitcoin with my transactions. Anyone could also just do a simple sum of all the addresses in bitcoin at any time. I can’t do that with monero. There is no need to check every single transaction when you can just sum the total supply at any given moment.

So nostr:npub1wamvxt2tr50ghu4fdw47ksadnt0p277nv0vfhplmv0n0z3243zyq26u3l2 is not technically wrong when he says that monero zero proofs or whatever requires you to trust that it works. And you can argue that other cryptographic properties in bitcoin require trust too. And that’s correct but that trust is not built on my understanding of complex software. It’s built on time and actual firsthand experience. I understand how they work and trust it because it has earned my trust. No amount of firsthand experience can change the supply soundness flaw in monero. And average sheeple are not going to magically start giving a shit about their privacy anytime soon. So I’ll take the supply soundness and practice privacy using tools like pay join and ecash.

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Discussion

Hanshan 1y ago

you're proving my point

nostr:nevent1qqsp00g66jame0tgt4tl30f0l8apsmsd6vceh2k34kplp3ajqepfjwcpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgs0npwnpyvheqz7zuvuwvv9k460c0hyqlturds40hhfn34vufvehwcrqsqqqqqp2gasdm

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Moving the goalposts.

Neither you nor monero devs can guarantee supply soundness. That makes monero a shitcoin HFSP 🫡

Hanshan 1y ago

By the EXACT same logic

you cant trust ECDSA to ensure that only your private keys can spend your utxos.

But you do.

Your whole argument is just

"I trust Team Bitcoin when they say ECDSA is secure.

But I don't trust Team Monero when they say range proofs are secure.

I don't DYOR.

I don't verify.

I just follow the prevalent groupthink of the team I like."

Frankly, you're a sorryass Bitcoiner.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

WRONG.

I trust that private keys work because I’ve literally used them to spend. But you keep moving the goalposts lmao prove that the monero supply is sound first.

Frankly you can HFSP 🫡

Hanshan 1y ago

lol ok

You have no evidence your private key is the only key that can spend a utxo.

This property of bitcoin depends on the ECDSA encryption it uses being mathematically sound and the implementation being correctly coded

YOU *TRUST* THE BITCOIN COMMUNITY WHEN THEY TELL YOU THIS IS SO.

YOU ARE ALREADY RELYING ON CRYPTOGRAPHIC PRIMITIVES YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

YOU JUST REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

Do you have any evidence that a different private key can spend my utxos? All you’re doing is talking in abstract theoretical “what ifs.” But it’s just unproductive mental masturbation.

Provide evidence that monero’s supply is sound. If you can’t, then that is the main reason why bitcoin is winning against monero. Adding zero proofs or whatever you call it to bitcoin would jeopardize supply soundness.

Hanshan 1y ago

if you dont have the ability to actually reflect on your fundamental assumptions you are a waste of time.

point is

you demand proof from me,

but trust other "maxis."

WITHOUT understanding or DYOR on *either* of the cryptographic primitives involved.

it is intellectually inconsistent and you arent a cypherpunk or a true bitcoiner.

just a team player unwilling to make the effort of critical thinking.

have a nice day.

Hanshan 1y ago

Its perfectly normal to place trust in 3rd parties. nobody has the time to become an expert in everything and then personally audit all this stuff.

A big part of learning is ADMITTING WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW.

Its fine (ie, reasonable to me) to *trust* the ECDSA implementation in bitcoin. Obviously I do it too.

But it's retarted to trust ECDSA (without reflection or understanding) but then refuse to examine *other* well-established cryptographic primitives.

because reasons.

usually those reasons are "Team Bitcoin doesn't approve of those specific cryptographic primitives and Im a good team player. Look at my cool laser eyes."

You don't understand Pedersen commitments or know what zero-knowledge proofs are? You don't trust me when I say their probably *at-least* as reliable as the ECDSA sceme you're ALREADY trusting?

Fine, just say "i don't know or care and Im not going to look into it." At least that's intellectually honest.

Or just "I'm a moron and I trust what a block explorer tells me."

Everybody has to eventually place trust somewhere. But that doesn't mean you should shave your head and join the cult.

The absolute state of the bitcoin community

smdh

nostr:nevent1qqs0epwyq05e9sscd35pawyct5dys8znnu2qa96pnm9fh308e07hnrgpr4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezucnfw33k76twv4ezuum0vd5kzmp0qgsytuv4el7t3jtjfm7zfrc9q730ked40806he7dx5uctxqk8j4hvfcrqsqqqqqppjaywt