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Unpopular opinion amongst Bitcoiners (but still correct): debt *is* money.

Money is an elaborate method of quantifying societal obligations. These obligations trigger action and exchange.

As long as it remains a zero sum game, it’s working. Fiat and contemporary credit practices distorted this. That’s the scam. That’s why Bitcoin is the fix.

Btw money also requires nation states for it to exist because they enable the necessary degree of abstraction in societal interaction.

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Micael 1mo ago 💬 3

Debt is not money.

Banks do not lend anything

The government prints credit

Banks create banks credit

Both of them are just one side o f a balance sheet, the other side is debt. You are right when you say it should be a zero sum game, but it’s not, and will never be with debt.

Money MUST BE debt free. Because money is the opposite of debt. That the only fear system. Private property you can own with no counterparty risk.

You don’t need the government to tell you what money is. They will let you know by prohibiting it, and trying to control it or replace it with fake money = debt

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Discussion

B R 1mo ago 💬 1

Nation state borders will slowly dissolve as the bitcoin standard evolves into a world currency.

imnuso 1mo ago 💬 1

I think that’s unlikely. Nation states in its current form will dissolve but geopolitical considerations will remain. Therefor borders of some kind will too.

B R 1mo ago 💬 1

Or, perhaps, they will be geo 'something else' . Georeligeous considerations maybe ??

imnuso 1mo ago

Yes, would be the same thing. Religion was that before.

imnuso 1mo ago 💬 1

I think we mostly agree. Only difference is our definition of debt. I define it in a very broad sense as set of all societal obligation expressed in and related to money.

Micael 1mo ago 💬 1

I think what you are trying to say is that debt/currency/credit is an accepted medium of exchange with a big network effect.

But that doesn’t mean it’s money. Thats my point. Money has no central issues and no liability attached to it. Money is debt free.

imnuso 1mo ago

No what I’m saying is societal obligation triggered the need for the creation of money as unit of account to accurately track obligations within society (debt). That’s its primary function, not medium of exchange which is secondary. Money didn’t emerge to transcend barter but to optimize debt relations.

Rangeman 1mo ago 💬 1

Debt is not money.

Banks do not lend anything

The government prints credit

Banks create banks credit

Both of them are just one side o f a balance sheet, the other side is debt. You are right when you say it should be a zero sum game, but it’s not, and will never be with debt.

Money MUST BE debt free. Because money is the opposite of debt. That the only fear system. Private property you can own with no counterparty risk.

You don’t need the government to tell you what money is. They will let you know by prohibiting it, and trying to control it or replace it with fake money = debt

imnuso 1mo ago

Money must be debt (broad definition) otherwise no one would trade it for goods. That’s why people are obliged to accept money for goods by law on most countries. It’s a tool to keep track of balances. These balances are balances of societal obligations