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Agree you can't escape USD for now, in most trades. Thats what UoA sorta means, no?

It's simply that one can swap between the USD price to whatever else they may ultimately want nearly instantaneously (no slippage and accepted everywhere), thus ignoring this is giving free money away to someone that can arb.

It is what it is. It's some sort of phase shift that won't happen overnight, or be obvious until after the fact, when we'll be able to live in this non-usd denominated world you describe.

Hanshan 3d ago

I'm not suggesting that some sort of quantum leap is possible.

Just pointing out that bitcoiners do not acknowledge the simple fact that the US dollar distortions they complain about affect *all pricing*

if there's some fiat structural reason that USD cantillionaires ape into 2010 Toyota Camrys then that distorts the proportion that we're talking about.

same with gold, silver, real estate whatever

we have to look at what the UOA is and structural reasons why it might prefer one asset to another.

there is no accurate pricing possible under a fiat standard.

to put it another way, all pricing is distorted by the nature of the underlying UOA.

YODL 3d ago

Eh...agree to slightly disagree, for now

Hanshan 3d ago

I thought this might be explanatory too

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzp7v96vy3jlyqtct3n3e3sk6hflp7usra0sdkz477axwx4n39nxamqy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qgewaehxw309ac8yetdd96k6tnswf5k6ctv9ehx2ap0qqswyk7f6ljj5u3kpla87k7uswcpw4agj5uddyvhwwt3yz50skmjnjs8wr50a

YODL 3d ago

I think we're in agreement on usd being more tied to real world messiness than the pure theoretical "it cancels out" math view. It's all just trading pair bartering at end of day. But the knee jerk cancel out reasoning is close to reality _because_ USD is so liquid and deep across all trading pairs. That's the point of UoA/money, breaking all trades into a simple linear ordering of one denomination. That you say it's a manipulated or bad yardstick is true, but it's consistently flawed across trading pairs, as liquidity and arb ensure it adapts quickly. That's what they teach you in Econ anyway, I'm sure there are examples where this doesn't hold so well, but my little bit of studying told me arb never last long in modern economies, as there are vultures and bots who make sure of it.

In abnormal times, when capital controls (if that's right term) may take place, then we get to see some action.

Hanshan 3d ago

if I understand your point correctly,

you feel that because of liquidity there are no structural, social or memetic reasons for US dollars to prefer one of these markets over the other?

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqpxfzhdwlm3cx9l6wdzyft8w8y9gy607tqgtyfq7tekaxs7lhmxfqyvhwumn8ghj7urjv4kkjatd9ec8y6tdv9kzumn9wshszymhwden5te0danxvcmgv95kutnsw43z7qpqe9kkr595y4tvl4dtrl0szfhf6txt3duza5funfrmvpvpknmtsx0q28a99d

YODL 3d ago

I smell a trap, but yes

Hanshan 3d ago

no trap, just clarifying 😁

I think there are reasons for US dollars to prefer one asset over another. reasons that are *unique to US dollars* and may not translate if we were denominating prices in a different UOA.

but I think this is probably the crux of what we disagree on 👍

YODL 3d ago

If you could make point more concrete, that'd help. Cuz yeah, from just a trading perspective I don't get what you mean by "USD favors" something.

If what I want is buying some good or service right now, then scooping some extra dollars up quickly with arb is the move.

If I'm trying to do that over a prolonged holding period (storing wealth across time), then holding onto gold might make sense... If resistance to gov seizure/censorship, then maybe BTC. Feel like I'm stating the obvious, so once again not sure you're point. I wanna understand, but I don't

Hanshan 3d ago

I mean, the obvious answer is regulatory.

if a market is highly regulated and it's difficult for US dollars to move in and out then the friction will naturally cause those dollars to seek a different market.

theres available supply etc.

maturation, do you need to lock up US dollars for a specific time period?

information asymmetry, certain assets are understood better and therefore favored by USD investors.

and there are definitely memetic drives where recent successes are favored regardless of underlying value prop

All markets are different. I don't think treating them as universally equivalent is accurate. these issues are mostly, but not necessarily, unique to the fact that it's US dollars moving around.

if they were priced in something else and it was a different asset moving, then there would be a *different structural context.*

anyway that's what i mean by "USD favors"

thanks for helping me think it through.

and it's related but actually a different conversation, not only are the markets different vis-a-vis USD but I think that treating US dollars once they enter a market as if they were fungible with US dollars in another market is probably a misunderstanding. they may still be called "USD," but they actually behave as a different asset and I'm not sure comparing them to each other is accurate.

but let's just leave that there for now okay? 😅

YODL 3d ago

Will reread and ponder, but this clip I just fumbled my way through making will surely interest you. Check it out!

nostr:nevent1qqstltsup0w4pppgu0nlfhpkkrhmg8c88duldxvrkxyptdy0hplk0ugprfmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn9qyg8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqg4waehxw309ahx7um5wfjkc6t5v4ejummjvupzp55yzdcjzuwr8cgh6j7sjv9vqkev2xesavczrmudfufr8upvjz3tqvzqqqqqqysakw78

YODL 3d ago

Rereading I see more what you mean. Simple example, USD dislikes crypto. It takes some doing to buy crypto, you can't just click a button on bank, nor buy it on E*Trade. You have to make a new account on a crypto exchange, yada yada, and then your bank is likely to interfere when they detect "suspicious activity" or the like. So that friction is enough for a lot of people who might dabble to steer clear. At least that was the case prior to ETFs. And back further you had to go to send money to shady Japanese exchange to buy BTC on mtgox (huge friction, and partly why I am not swimming in bitcoins today, as I saw that back in the day and was like "ooohh, that looks shady, no thank you").

The clip I posted minutes ago should interest you. Highlights how currencies and property rights are all smooth and background oiled machines...until they're not.

Hanshan 2d ago

yeah exactly.

I suspect the markets are all much more complicated and difficult to evaluate then we can imagine without directly getting involved in them.

it certainly isn't as simple as they're all equal and access is open

YODL 2d ago

I hope the clip from podcast is real. Have doubts now. Guess I'll tag nostr:npub13ql75nq8rldygpkjke47y893akh5tglqtqzs6cspancaxktthsusvfqcg7 . Could not find source of clip for Yanis Varoufakis snippets you played on latest pod. Went to your site but source not listed, just the clip recording, unless I missed something

JohnnyMilkweed 3d ago

Travel hard

Hanshan 3d ago

precisely.

these are all USD denominated.

and when we see graphs that look different, we should ask ourselves WHY us dollars are flowing into one asset instead of the other one.

JohnnyMilkweed 3d ago

I don’t think I understand entirely. Like, it all comes back to how much food you can put on my table for .069 BTC/Camry’s. It varies from place to place. You mean all these countries are on the war-dollar standard?

Hanshan 3d ago

except for extremely remote markets

all prices come back to USD

its not that those USD prices of euros or whatever don't change of course

but that remembering they are USD prices is important.

so if its USD/EUR or JPY/GBP or Gold/Bitcoin or whatever

and that proportion changes in favor of gold (all fractions are proportions)

its because *the underlying US dollars preferred gold over Bitcoin for some reason*

the same for JPY/GBP or whatever you like.

its a simple thing with profound implications.

Neve Farms 3d ago

I’ll pay 0.0420 Btc for a Toyota camry

Paul 3d ago

How many 2010 toyoda Camrys is a bitcoin

Hanshan 2d ago

1/.069 homie

Swear Jar 3d ago

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Hanshan 2d ago 💬 1

which word do you think I misunderstanding?

Swear Jar 2d ago

Denominated

Ape Mithrandir 3d ago

There are some Bitcoiners who sell goods priced in Bitcoin.

Hanshan 3d ago

without looking at the fiat valuation?

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzp7v96vy3jlyqtct3n3e3sk6hflp7usra0sdkz477axwx4n39nxamqy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qgewaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8xmn0wf6zuum0vd5kzmp0qqsdm30e7ewgyl9py7c36yhtl8tvm0hvmvc2uz0skj37t6d3lm6n9cg33ceje

Ape Mithrandir 3d ago

Some hobbyist yes. Some artist too.

Hanshan 3d ago

it doesn't really change point I'm making, the vast majority of the market behaves like this.

and misunderstands like this.

but that's great and we need more of it.

Hanshan 3d ago

The closest I could think of was nostr:npub1ge0tzdqy6useekgu9d9g5l3s3t2wpx7p9xxuprz7ajzjaxl4mgyssejcs3 who's damn near autistic about pricing things directly in Monero. but I think he uses the 162-day moving average to establish a valuation.

shortwavesurfer2009 3d ago

Very close, 182 (6 months). This stops day-to-day market fluctuations from causing problems.

Hanshan 3d ago

lol sorry I forgot how many days were in a year.

I think with a USD unit of account this is the best we can hope to do right now

shortwavesurfer2009 3d ago

Only for the first one, because after that, people can see that it cost 0.069BTC last time it was sold.

Hanshan 3d ago

The vast majority of the market adjusts to the current spot price. they don't just take a snapshot at a particular point and use that as the valuation going forward.

exactly because of volatility *denominated in the unit of account*

shortwavesurfer2009 3d ago

Oh sure, but if you buy a Toyota Camry today for 0.069 BTC and you drive it for three years, then you know you're not going to get 0.069 BTC for it. So you'll have to sell it for a lower price.

Hanshan 3d ago

we're not talking about the *same Toyota Camry though. we're just talking about the market price of 2010 Toyota Camrys.

if there's reason for fiat cantillionaires to ape into 2010 Toyota Camrys, then obviously the valuation vis-a-vis other assets increases.

but the point is that there might be structural reasons for that that are unique to the underlying unit of account.

TAPEBOY 3d ago

If I want to sell my farm products, a piece of art, or charge a service I offer, I wouldn't look at no fiat like USD. I simply would look at the value of the product/service I offer - looking at the time, energy and resources spent. Then happily price that in Bitcoin. That's what I think is when Bitcoin becomes my unit of account.

Hanshan 3d ago

the point is about HOW you arrive at value of the product/service as denominated in Bitcoin.

its extremely difficult (and possibly fiscally irresponsible) to intentionally NOT look at the purchasing power in the local UoA.

but what you're talking about is exactly how we win.

people themselves, and their local communities, transacting directly with each other and denominating what they need directly in Bitcoin.

without touching USD.

goatmeal 2d ago

the price of making a bitcoin transaction is the only thing denominated in bitcoin

Hanshan 2d ago

yes 💯

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