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Do not confuse anti-trust laws that are designed to deter monopolies with statutory worker protection laws, they are much distant from each other in functions and intentions; ant-trust laws protect general consumers who are both rich and poor. Statutory worker protection laws mostly are geared to protect blue collar workers and lower level white collar workers.
#economics #unions #QOTO. #news
Sincerely, Katherine Tate, Managing Editor, #FreePeoplesFreePress News
nostr:npub1734e8cvj9tjwt3nrwyvewsgfy4zj8xk0770vf8cv286p4fcj0vvswawlul
Different laws but more closely related than you may think.
Without anti-trust laws companies could have created coalitions which then could have been used to prevent the worker protection laws from every coming to light. The anti-trust laws are what stop companies from gaining complete control and power and in turn are why we can function to keep them in check at all.
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That’s what they said about flying cars. :P
I don’t think this is a cop-out, I highly doubt we have the drive to have everything automated like you envision. I highly doubt that humans are willing to accept that kind of large-scale automation. I highly doubt we even have the resources to begin with to automate everything in a few decades. All I see is prototypes, and not even always succesful or even affordable.
No, seriously, I think you’re the one out of touch. :P
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The difference is we already have the tech, its already proven it can be done and its already out int he field doing what it does… so its not speculation, it is reality, and it is here. The only step left is mass production and refinement.
We already have robots that can walk around, open doors, manipulate objects.. they are a hair away from being as capable as humans.
Hell even in the netherlands you have 100% automated cleaning locations that dont need robots either. For example there are bathrooms that never need anyone to clean them because they fully automate their own cleaning.
nostr:npub18y7skwwwcjh4p6e09622zd2zyuhvuf6s4jdryfchqd8qhrxe32cqufm5np
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn But if automation gets rid of the need for a lot of labor, as you said, why then should people be expected to have jobs at all? Seems like we should welcome the day when people can simply live and enjoy life without spending most of their waking hours laboring, especially laboring to put a few extra dollars in someone else's bank account.
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It doesnt get rid of labour it shifts it to higher-skilled labour.
We have had automation for thousands of years as part of each step in technology.. Thousands of years ago plumbing was invented, for example, and that was automation very similar to todays.. It put an entire domain of work out of business and replaced it with more skilled people who made pipes, assembled them, fixed and cleaning them, etc. Yes one person can now do the work of 100 its true, but this increased productivity meant people were free to invent new things with new workers.. Its no surprise that despite that automation there was no utopia where no one worked, not then, not now... despite popular beleif it isnt going to eliminate jobs, it will just shift the type of jobs.
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Anti-trust laws really do not protect workers from being exploited by big and small business establishments. Unions came into existence largely due to the failure of local, state, federal government elected and appointed officials to reign in business in general. Anti-trust laws are designed to protect the consumer from unfair market pricing due to monopolies that control the price of goods and services. Reduces rigging of market prices and promotes free trade within a capital system.
Big business continues to hammer away at anti-trust laws, this is not going to stop with the total elimination of labor unions. This is only going to get much worse if unions no longer exist.
Big business will continue to financially exploit workers whether we enforce anti-trust laws or not. Labor union collective bargaining came into existence because big and small businesses work men, women, and children long hours, would not provide basic health and safety on job sites.
Neither businesses nor labor unions are justified in being involved in misconduct; we cannot and should not over rationalize that either businesses or labor unions are the proximate cause of past, present, and future economic failures. Because, say for the sake of argument that businesses and labor unions completely and fully worked together in harmony, U.S.A. still would suffer from natural economic financial crises due to an imbalance in supply and demand of goods and services, which is cycle in nature.
#economics #antitrust #QOTO #news
Sincerely, Katherine Tate, Managing Editor, #FreePeoplesfreepress News
nostr:npub1734e8cvj9tjwt3nrwyvewsgfy4zj8xk0770vf8cv286p4fcj0vvswawlul Of course the laws protect them...if they are enforced... they do nothing when not enforced.... therein lies the problem.
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There are plenty of people who will never have the intellectual capacity to grow beyond a cleaner's job. You're kinda telling them to fuck off here. A no-skill job will always be required somewhere. And I highly doubt they can all be automated. There'll still be plenty of those kind of jobs in a few decades. You're kinda out of touch there.
nostr:npub18y7skwwwcjh4p6e09622zd2zyuhvuf6s4jdryfchqd8qhrxe32cqufm5np
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn There are plenty of people who will never have the intellectual capacity to grow beyond a cleaner’s job. You’re kinda telling them to fuck off here.
Nah, there is no one who is incapable of skills. Technical knowledge is only one very narrow type of skill. There are social skills, artistic skills, wood working skills, tons of skills. Anyone who is truly incapable of acquiring any skills of any kind would be too incapable to even do a cleaning job. I cant tell you how many people who were very low in IQ and do beautiful art.
This is a cop-out I just cant agree with, its out of touch with the reality of their abilities… As for those jobs in a few decades… I think you may be out of touch with just how far robotics has come, a decade will be MORE than enough for robots to have the dexterity and capabilty of humans enough to be able to fully automate cleaning tasks. Hell we are surprisingly close now.
nostr:npub18y7skwwwcjh4p6e09622zd2zyuhvuf6s4jdryfchqd8qhrxe32cqufm5np
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 Ah, so your idea is only working with a competent government (which isn’t also short-staffed) which can actually check up all companies to make sure everything’s done fairly?
Yeah.. good luck, heh.
And examples.. well I’ve read about the work conditions of Amazon workers, for example. How can that even exist? It’d not be doable here. Not legally.
I assume that the Amazon warehouse conditions are legal because they’ve been talked about so much, and seemingly haven’t improved.
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn The assumption is that we are obligated to have a competent government… If we assume the government isnt competent then why bother with laws at all. And examples.. well I’ve read about the work conditions of Amazon workers, for example. How can that even exist? It’d not be doable here. Not legally.
There are plenty of issues you could find… but again unions are legal in every state so the issues are out of band for this discussion, but agreed they need addressing.
Similarly I couldnt support myself off a Dutch wage, I got paid 1/3 the market value int he netherlands… now its closer to 1/10th… So there are some pretty glaring issues in a highly unionized country too.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 I believe union work should be limited to safe work condition and a livable wage.
Corporations could be involved in wage-fixing the labor market in their favor as well.
nostr:npub1qy6vuyq2t8dwn03mj9g0dhm5uwewz0tamta9lumm4qvdvu7xzjfq4870k5 I dont think clean safe work should have anything to do with unions. The govt should ensure that. Corporations could be involved in wage-fixing the labor market in their favor as well.
If they did this would be illegal and against anti-trust laws.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn All strikes are is people refusing to work. If you say "No matter what you do to your employees, those employees are obliged to either accept it or resign (and then be unable to feed their families)" then what you have is slavery.
Incidentally, if you're going to invoke contract enforcement to counter that, when you look into it employment contract law in the UK is utterly toothless. Other than setting wages, employment contracts here are legally barely worth the paper they're written on.
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People can refuse to work.. as long as
1) It isnt unionized (done through organized coordination)
2) The company is free to fire you for not coming to work
Since i am mirroring this with anti-trust laws that I support thats like saying "price-fixing is just companies choosing to charge more or pay less".. and like the above example this is true.. and yes companies can set whatever prices they want.. but again they arent allowed to 1) organize with other companies to set prices 2) you are free to buy from competition
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Wait, there'll always be a job needing cleaners and suchlike. A fulltime cleaner should be able to have a liveable wage. That's what minimum wage is for.
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Companies arent charities.. if you dont provide the value of minimum wage no company should be obligated to donate charity to you so you can have a living wage...
For starters, no we wont "always be a job needing cleaners"... we are very quickly getting to a world where low-skill labour will not exist in a few decades
Two I have no issue with jobs existing that dont provide enough value to make a living wage. Those jobs should be stepping stone jobs.. they should be done as an extra job on the side, or by children who dont have skills yet, or to temporarily suppliment welfare while one goes to school... A no-skill job should **never** be a life long career, and the government should provide the means to make sure that is the case fairly by giving the means to obtain better skills.
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As far as I see it:
(Big) Companies have a lot of power already. Individual workers have considerably less power. Them working together (and forming an union) protects them against the power of companies. Especially big companies.
You’re talking about antitrust and such, but how does that protect the workers? Will they even bother with the individual workers? A sole worker doesn’t have an army of lawyers behind them to do what is right. An union does.
I only have to look at the USA and see how things are shit for the workers in anti-Union states. How would that get fixed anytime soon? Individual workers can hardly demand improvements like an union can. They just get fired and other victims get hired.
No, somehow I’m really not convinced by your arguments. We’ve already got running examples of what you think should have been, and we can see it’s not really an improvement to those workers there.
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn (Big) Companies have a lot of power already. Individual workers have considerably less power. Them working together (and forming an union) protects them against the power of companies. Especially big companies.
Actually no, they have far less power than individuals… they cant vote, they get taxed double, they dont have human rights and protections, there is no concept of minimum wage where a company is garunteed to make a minimum amount of money at their venture…. overall large companies have far less rights and powers than individuals. You’re talking about antitrust and such, but how does that protect the workers? Will they even bother with the individual workers? A sole worker doesn’t have an army of lawyers behind them to do what is right. An union does.
Antitrust protects the worker because it makes it illegal for companies to “unionize” and fix worker wages. If it werent for anti-trust laws companies could create a coalition and all companies could agree to never pay any of its employees more than minimum wage. Since its a coalition a worker cant just go and quit and work somewhere else, since all companies “unionized” in this scenario and the wage would be the same… It stops wage competition… anti-trust laws make this illegal. I only have to look at the USA and see how things are shit for the workers in anti-Union states. How would that get fixed anytime soon? Individual workers can hardly demand improvements like an union can. They just get fired and other victims get hired.
There are no “anti-union” states.. unions are legal in all states. No, somehow I’m really not convinced by your arguments. We’ve already got running examples of what you think should have been, and we can see it’s not really an improvement to those workers there.
Examples? I know of no place that has what I suggest which is 1) Strong and enforced anti-trust laws 2) Unions are likewise illegal
Unions are currently legal in all states, and anti-trust laws are enforced minimally at best. So no where I know of has these 2 qualities.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn It's a weird take that low income people should be paid even less because of what boils down to the greed of the owner class.
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The what now... They are paid less because minimum wage makes it impossible to hire them at the value they provide. Companies arent charities, they will only hire a person if they provide enough value to pay for themselves and then some. It isnt greed to want people to pull their own weight, nor is it greed to pay someone what their work is worth.
Now there is an issue that there are poor people being paid so low, that is no doubt. But that issue isnt the fault of companies, its the government's for not providing easy access to skill-development for those people. free education would be a nice start, but welfare and other support channels need to be engaged to ensure those people can invest the time into education at all.
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nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 Well, the strikes aren’t always about increasing wages, actually. It’s also about lowering work pressure and all that. You seem to be focused on price-fixing here.
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn The idea is the same even when you talk about other features… and it works the same on the flip-side with antitrust… companies might not create coalitions just to price-fix, maybe they want to sell their product at the same price but be allowed to use all sorts of dangerous chemicals, or build it with cheap parts.. The concept is the same even beyond price-fixing, its just easier to talk in price fixing terms.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 In the UK, Unions have much wider role than that. They may do elsewhere, I don't know. There is a long history with matters such as safety, welfare and discrimination that they played a big role in, most of it now accepted by most people as reasonable and normal. I think such things need to be treated as a different from your point.
nostr:npub1hj67h4zzxuf4u6h3jmsg9t808z6w7w95gvgn3sg4hrucgxsj37mqqw65uv Yes they have a wider role in the UK, netherlands, and much of the world... In fact I had the UK in mind when I started to realize maybe I should be anti-union afterall.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 We had teacher strikes, cop strikes, etc, because of the government’s decisions. Only possible with unions because how else will you organize this? Here the strikes are usually against government, not so much against companies. At least, not at that large scale. How do you figure this will fit here?
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn You wont have strikes, strikes shouldnt be allowed, that is price-fixing and would be no different than companies organizing together and refusing to give their services at the market price…
Now you CAN have protests, and those get organized all the time. So nothing stopping people from protesting these issues still.
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There has always been the danger of unions creating their own massive power structures beyond organized crime. Unions are still needed due to failure by United States Federal Authorities to reign in big business. If we get rid of unions, collective bargaining creases to exist and big business grows even more stronger. U.S. elected politicians have already weakened anti-trust laws, so if we weaken or totally eliminate unions big business will continue lobbying efforts to do away with anti-trust laws and labor unions. There is no easy answer to this problem, U.S. history proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that big business cannot be trusted. U.S. history also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that organized crime has in the past infiltrated labor unions.
So there has always been dishonestly within U.S. private business on both sides of the equation.
#economics #unions #QOTO #news
Sincerely, Katherine Tate, Managing Editor, #FreePeoplesFreePress News
nostr:npub1734e8cvj9tjwt3nrwyvewsgfy4zj8xk0770vf8cv286p4fcj0vvswawlul I'd argue unions arent needed due to a failure of the USA to "reign in big business"... all that means is we need to start enforcing anti-trust laws. Otherwise we get into the flip side where if unions are allowed than companies are completely justified in what they do as well.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 *Giggles* Self-checkout machines are starting to fall in disfavor around here because theft is hugely on the rise due to inflation. Those companies aren't saving anything, just as a funny aside.
There's a personnel shortage everywhere, too. I'd say minimum wage is actually helping out a lot right now. If there was too many workers and not enough jobs, you'd have a point. But right now, not really.
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn Giggles Self-checkout machines are starting to fall in disfavor around here because theft is hugely on the rise due to inflation. Those companies aren’t saving anything, just as a funny aside.
Thats the thing there are plenty of downsides to self-checkout… which is why many store owners might be resistant to it. But the more you price-fix the cost of labour with minimum wage the more those down-sides are worth it since there is a point where the costs balance out.
When there is a shortage of workers you dont need unions, thats the point, market pressures increase your pay as is since companies now need to compete to hire you aware… So there really is no good argument for needing unions in that scenario.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 Only makes (human... ) sense during a surplus of open position. Otherwise you have a race to the bottom - bad enough for some companies (e.g. think of critical infrastructure - water supply etc), but a bankrupt company does not necessarily imply major human suffering. But as a worker at one point you might not earn enough to sustain you/family/kids etc. Og course, you could think of "outsourcing" that to the state but then every citizen subsidies that specific industry sector. Better to let the sector pay, ergo minimum wages
nostr:npub1ulx7msxkh6mgunrlrxj8cngsvp7dp5apv8evd0hmfvzcrguuqfjslpc9sv There are issues around poverty and people not making enough.. but those are problems that should be solved outside of the mechanics we discuss here.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 Huh. That might be an American thing? Here, people are reluctant to hire well-educated people for low-skill jobs, because they tend to stay a short time because they'd get bored and move on to jobs that actually suit their level.
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn No its pretty universal in the world... It isnt the result of high-education people getting hired for low skilled jobs. It is instead the fact that high-education positions that automate low-skilled jobs emerge. People are hired to build self-chekout machines and to maintain them, and the cashiers loose their job entierly. As minimum wage increases this accelerates.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 How does minimum wage cause harm to the poor?
nostr:npub1ukcz3c3ek9ugnmrj37cjm2q9gsaqss5j9dqwpqmx0tgkzudsseqqcp40jn Because minimum wage is well known to cause unemployment shifts towards the poor... Higher minimum wage means hiring shifts so that fewer poor/low-educated people are hired and more higher-education people are hired. Minimum wage effectively increases unemployment amongst the group of people that you are trying to help (the poor) doing more harm than good.
nostr:npub1kpwlxpzkxfmuxjmzc2wp3rf9vjg0sgydmlhsnrgqr3maf59h86qqdxxzz4 Fun bit of trivia, some left wing anarchists are anti-union.
I'll have to investigate what the reasoning is. I looked up worker cooperative, but YT didn't offer any clarity.
nostr:npub1w58egz9lydnt8945z6rg6955xulrfmrl0r5ajhpft6cc8cjkapqstugax2 Well that would be consistent at least.