lol I'm buying

I tried to donate through nostr:npub1kmwdmhuxvafg05dyap3qmy42jpwztrv9p0uvey3a8803ahlwtmnsnhxqk9 but it won't generate an invoice. stuck here:

this is very good, thanks!

lol what outage?!

to be clear, I haven't even spoken to the store yet. they are about to open and I really want to pay them in bitcoin. I don't know ANYTHING about them.

maybe they're already bitcoiners!

I think they just have a maximum. so I assume they manage that on their end within reason

I'm not confident that you are properly simulating the mindset of the uninitiated.

"here's this thing, it's really great [a bunch of stuff they've never heard of and don't understand] and all you have to do is park a whole bunch of money in it in order to receive payments!" followed by "Ohh yea... that payment failed because your inbound liquidity is too low - just park more money in it!"

this sounds insane compared to "install Cash app, show a QR code"

liquidity

also figured that having an exchange right at hand (Strike, CashApp, etc) would also be good for a newbie who might want to immediately convert incoming sats to dollars (against my judgement lol)

breez and aqua don't have this problem, but Phoenix does

I figured the concept of lightning channel liquidity would be WAY too much for a newcomer who is just trying to sell their products.

I planned on introducing that as a second phase, with me managing the liquidity. and then eventually offload that to them entirely.

maybe one day I could convince you to build your freelancing app on top of it... if your platform provides enough value-add over the base protocol you could absolutely charge platform fees. like perhaps you run a Cashu mint and integrate it deeply into the flow and charge a mint fee + whatever other fees you might be able to justify, like excellent search and categorization of posts or maybe limiting signups to an exclusive high-value group who people would pay more to access.

Thanks!

Arbiters set their own fees for their services. either flat or percentage. That's for providing the escrow and the expertise.

Depending on how people build their Catallax clients, users won't have to know they're using Nostr.

Each project chooses an Arbiter who is willing to take the project on. This person/business both judges the work and holds the escrow. This allows the protocol to be fully decentralized and not require any platform (nor platform fees)

Thanks, I'll check him out!

Hm yea, I guess they could install Cash App rather than Strike. probably will seem less intimidating.

has anyone here successfully onboarded a local store to taking Lightning payments? My number one goal is SIMPLE and foolproof.

Custodianship is likely best for this application (for now).

easiest thing I can think of at the moment is giving them an old android phone or tablet on WiFi only and helping them get a Strike account and instruct on how to take payments with Lightning invoices. if they already have an iOS or android device in house, even easier.

other ideas #AskNostr?

one day I'd like to offer a locally-hosted (I'd run it for all to use) Lightning node and related infra, but I think that's jumping the gun, especially when I might have to also be orange-pilling them to begin with. although I've got a leg up there...: I've bought farm products around here with lightning and I can show newcomers receipts on the extreme low fees and how those payments have appreciated in dollar terms since the producer received.

that, plus I would guarantee a certain amount of weekly business if they take bitcoin ;)

the AI demon at least has some suggestions for further reading:

---

This is a profound question—how to **bootstrap temporary hierarchies** within a network without risking **their persistence and ossification** is a key concern in both political philosophy and organizational design. And yes, there *is* prior literature on this, though it’s fragmented across disciplines. Here's a synthesis:

---

### 🔧 The Problem:

**Hierarchies are efficient for coordination** but risk becoming **self-perpetuating** due to:

* Power's tendency to preserve itself

* Resource centralization

* Path dependency

* Legitimacy via familiarity ("we've always done it this way")

---

### 🧠 Conceptual Parallels in Literature

#### 1. **Temporary Hierarchies in Indigenous and Stateless Societies**

* **James C. Scott** – *"The Art of Not Being Governed"*: Describes how Zomia peoples use *ephemeral leadership* and physical mobility to avoid state capture. Leaders are accepted only situationally (e.g., wartime), then shed.

* **Pierre Clastres** – *"Society Against the State"*: Some stateless societies actively resist the formation of permanent leadership, enforcing anti-hierarchical norms even during crisis leadership moments.

#### 2. **Sociocracy / Holacracy / Fractal Org Models**

* Emphasize **roles over ranks**, where leadership is **domain-specific and revocable**.

* Teams can temporarily assign someone as a “lead link” but *only for as long as the task requires*.

* Built-in **feedback loops** (like regular elections or review periods) help avoid permanence.

#### 3. **The Panarchy Model (Ecology & Resilience)**

* In ecology, **panarchy** refers to systems cycling through phases: exploitation → conservation → release → reorganization.

* Applied to human systems: **hierarchies arise in “exploitation” or “conservation”**, but collapse or are discarded in “release” to allow adaptive “reorganization.”

* Emphasizes **deliberate design of decay** or burnout stages.

#### 4. **Provisional Authority in Revolutionary Thought**

* **Bakunin and Kropotkin (Anarchist traditions)**: Acknowledge *temporary tactical unity*, but stress that these must be *voluntary, revocable, and non-coercive*.

* “**Means must prefigure ends**”: If the goal is a non-hierarchical society, the organizing form should itself be anti-entrenching.

#### 5. **Mutual Aid & Affinity Groups (Anarchist Practice)**

* Affinity groups operate as **flat networks**, but will *elect spokes or coordinators temporarily*, for specific actions.

* Once done, roles dissolve automatically—often via **cultural expectation**, not formal mechanism.

* Example: many **protest movements** use “spokescouncils” only during logistics-heavy phases.

---

### 🪨 Why Hierarchies Stick Around

Even in systems designed to be temporary, hierarchies can entrench themselves through:

* Information asymmetry

* Resource control

* Ritualization of roles (leaders become symbols)

* Drift from the original mission

* Lack of cultural pressure for dissolution

---

### 🛠 NON-Tech Strategies for Decommissioning Hierarchies

#### ✅ Cultural Tools:

* **Myth and Narrative**: Embed the story that *all leaders must step down once the task is done*. Ritualize this.

* **Rotating Leadership**: Roles rotate on a schedule regardless of performance.

* **Time-Bound Mandates**: No task = no leader. Leadership only exists when coordination is required.

* **Mockery and Satire**: Cultures can ridicule those who cling to power—strong in indigenous or anarchist traditions.

#### ✅ Rituals and Ceremonies:

* **Exit ceremonies** to publicly dissolve power roles.

* **Accountability circles** where former leaders report and then rejoin as peers.

#### ✅ Organizational Design:

* **Exit clauses** in charters (“sunset clauses”)

* **Consensus-based revocation** procedures

* **Deliberate redundancy** so leadership isn’t irreplaceable

---

### 🧩 Relevant Phrases / Search Terms:

If you want to explore further, try:

* "Temporary hierarchy in flat networks"

* "Anti-leadership culture"

* "Leaderless resistance"

* "Consensus minus" (decision-making when consensus isn't full)

* "Prefigurative politics"

* “Distributed leadership with revocability”

---

### 🪞Final Thought:

The deepest answer may be cultural: *design a norm where power is suspicious unless it justifies itself constantly*, and where *stepping down is honorable, not shameful*. If that’s baked into the narrative, then tech (like DAOs) can merely reflect it—not enforce it.

Would you like a list of primary texts to dig deeper into one of those threads (e.g., anarchist traditions, indigenous governance, or sociocratic orgs)?

so DAOs, basically.

I wondering if there's a non-tech strategy. going to look around for prior literature. I think the answer is broadly "culture" and "ideology", but I'd like to go deeper on this precise strategy

https://catallax.network

Oh nice, I didn't realize that! Is there a repo somewhere I could check out?

What exactly will a "Collaborative App Partner" do in connection with Safebox in the future? (or am I misunderstanding... is this not about safebox?)

I might have something for you! DM me and we can maybe take it to Signal or somewhere else

nostr:nprofile1qqsx8zd7vjg70d5na8ek3m8g3lx3ghc8cp5d9sdm4epy0wd4aape6vspz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0wd68ytnsw43qzrthwden5te0dehhxtnvdakqzymhwden5te0dejhwueww468smewdahx2wtv8wk 's recent episode has me eyeballing that nostr:nprofile1qqsfnnh6v3dspqtnwv3e46aed5k3nypyfx2wtet92ekg9szt3hr9k4qpzfmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2ucpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgqffwaehxw309ahx7um5wgcnvdekxvcnjdfkxucnwvpwv9c8qtnjw4hx7mnxd36hstnfduv3xupd goodness...

I did just run out of some store-bought stuff recently and it wasn't even graas fed.

too bad Joe is seemingly unaware of quantum-resistant schemes

when I checked on it a little later the estimate went from 16 hours to 4. so maybe disregard

who says Hoppe isn't cool?! he is among the coolest

as long as nobody sells they can just wait a little longer until the next update with larger number after the bear.

it's so easy :)

you can repost this every few months with a slightly larger number

my sentiment is great

buy a pepper mill 😉

well he's definitely gotten under my skin a few times and I'm sure he left a bit behind 😆❤️

holy shit I just accidentally zapped you five bitcoins fuck fuck how do I revert?!

I've always liked Jameson and still do. I don't love his behavior in op_return but I still like him and his work

https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

You would denominate the deposits in USD (and the goods) and perhaps the plucky soul who is running the mint could put up his own funds 1:1 for all deposits and then hold the BTC himself, taking on the price fluctuation risk.

The goal is to save merchants (and customers) the sometimes nearly 4% credit card processing fee. if you wanted to get very creative - after more analysis than I'm doing off the cuff right now - you could have the merchants pay a much lower processing fee, maybe 1% or 0.5%, and that could be pocketed by the aforementioned mint backer to offset his risk. If the Bitcoin price is favorable for a period, maybe he even refunds that fee back to the merchants or refunds + a bonus.

Agreed that the #1 goal is consistency and ease of use (and discounts) for the customers, and #2 goal is savings for the merchants. It's not simple bringing the this lower-fee, instant/guaranteed settlement network to uninitiated merchants and customers; there are some tradeoffs. But if whoever is attempting to run this operation is sufficiently incentivized to see it through, he could take on a bit of risk himself (and thus all the downside in the tradeoff...) in order to help it succeed with good UX.

yes exactly, presuppositions.

I'm trying not to presume **too much** about "people like you", as you're not a monoculture / hivemind, I would hope.

do you think you can make the case that human life begins at conception without involving any religious or supernatural concepts?

I think you're missing the original point about "active denial" vs "irrelevance".

You don't actively deny every jurisdiction that doesn't apply to you, not to mention the infinite number of nonexistent jurisdictions that you could _imagine_ and don't even purport reign anywhere. They are more like "irrelevant" or "N/A". Supporting a distant (or imaginary) jurisdiction is an active choice, simply not thinking about them is as close to neutral state of nature as you can get.

Did you think about an elephant while reading that paragraph? If not, were you "denying the elephant"?

If you want to use that Rothbard quote, fine. So, can a single cell petition for rights?

Same for the Seuss quote: is a single cell a person? is every one of my cells a person? are my sperms millions of people?

No offense taken whatsoever 🤝

Assume you do not live in Cambodia.

Does this mean that the NAP implies one should be a vegan?

If you don't think so, then you understand my meaning.

If the party in question is incapable of reason, persuasion, argumentation (fish, tree, blob of cells with no brain, etc.), the NAP doesn't apply. Maybe something else applies, but the NAP doesn't.