Nostr Web Client

It's worse on monero than on LN. On monero, if I send coins to pubkey X, I know that pubkey has unilateral control over them for about 20 minutes (10 monero blocks) before they can possibly forward them to some other destination. If they do forward them to someone else, I can credibly accuse them of knowingly doing so and I can provide cryptographic proof that they had the coins at some point.

Not so with LN. Thanks to atomic swaps, if I send coins to invoice X, I don't know if the pubkey therein ever has control of those coins. If he is a routing node, the amount of time he has control of those coins is 0. I cannot credibly accuse him of knowingly forwarding those coins to someone else, because he too does not know the destination, and moreover, once the swap was entered into there was no way he could possibly stop it. Once you create an htlc, you no longer control whether it gets settled.

So it's very different. On LN, intermediaries have plausible deniability. On monero, mixers have no plausible deniability.

rafael_xmr 7mo ago

>Not so with LN. Thanks to atomic swaps...

you say "Not so with LN", then proceeds to mention how it's an added workaround

that means if it's not default with LN, then xmr wins by default since every output is always a proxy output, not so with LN. Knowing if they have control or not over coins is useless because I want to know where they end up. If I know the coins I sent to you end up at "node X", I concluded my goal. And it's the same as you knowing the xmr you sent went to "output 123abc"

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Hanshan 7mo ago

seems to me his point is just "the blockchain is forever"

ie there is cryptographic proof that address controlled those funds forever.

which is a legit concern.

he's just misrepresenting it.

Super Testnet 7mo ago

> then proceeds to mention how it's and added workaround

The nice thing about this "added workaround" is, it's undetectable. Consequently, the sender cannot know if you're doing it. They don't know if the node that looks like the destination is the real destination or a decoy. Monero does not have this feature because it is sender-traceable by design.

> every output is always a proxy output

Zero monero outputs are ever proxy outputs if by that you mean "they hide the real recipient from the sender." They cannot be because the sender creates them in monero. He necessarily knows exactly where the money goes because he picked the destination and did not create a decoy.

> if I know the coins I sent to you end up at "node x"

This is the fundamental difference: with lightning, you never know that. The destination might be a decoy and you as the sender have no way of detecting that.