Nostr Web Client

I also think any group that is based on WoT or follows-of-follows will quickly turn into a shitshow because a lot of people have follow lists full of crazies, spam, scammers, and porn. Like, look at the follow lists. Look at the feed of the bigger WoT relays. Or, rather, don't. 🙈

They always degrade because follows are such a cheap signal.

Also, for example, a Christian following an atheist is common, but those atheists shouldn't be able to overun a Bible study group. That would defeat the purpose of having the group. You'd have to throw all of the Christians out who follow the atheists, to get rid of the atheists, but that's punishing someone for having a diverse set of friends, which is not so great.

I may follow men, but it doesn't mean I want them all invited to my pregnancy group. People who are carnivores don't make for fitting members of a vegan group. And so on. Not that they might not _individually_ be worth inviting, but not a blank invitation.

Making everything about follows destroys the use cases for almost everything.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

the idea is that the relay operator has an incentive to combat this kind of infiltration behaviour by explicitly excluding people who are actively infiltrating and poisoning a group

but at the same time it can even still be possible that another relay operator, even connected in a community relay group, may allow them there and they can have their empty chat that nobody sees their messages because their npub is persona non grata in the place where the users of that chatroom actually congregate, and that's all fine, maybe relay owner of the places where they don't bother to handle this stuff is not so popular with this group but maybe they retain their position because of other groups that are not divided liek this

it's not all or nothing, that's my point, and the idea that users should not have an active role in this is also something i think is unproductive because we are not a faceless corporation selling our users' data to advertisers

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ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

also, maybe you can see how if we make it easy for members to run the nodes that they can be active in both the social cohesion side of things, as well as the defenders of the group... so if we are making a chat about bible readings, and we get a constant problem of attacks from other users of the relay who follow these people, we can run our own node in the network, and block the messages of these users by either blacklisting them or removing the follows that follow these assclowns

i think that it should be pointed out that what i'm suggesting is also the Christian Way of doing things - to gently push back, and then if need be gosh darnit put up a fence

and i want to promote the idea of larger groups of relays cooperating together, so there is points of control that everyone can exert a small pressure as they see fit and when it is obvious there has to be a schism, so be it, put up the fence, just give people the tools

Laeserin 11mo ago

Okay, but I need a construct with one community-member list for multiple relays and I want to define the relays.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

well you have your nip-29 and nip-17 to work with

i prefer the idea of creating a playground and then just applying force to exclude bad behaviour, not people

Laeserin 11mo ago

I'd rather just exclude the people. Christians aren't punching bags.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

yes but you make stuff like what happened with highperfocused and cloudfodder in the gopher chat less likely to happen, i just made that channel to get people talking to each other about building go stuff, and cloudfodder jumped in and helped out as well as me

i think there is a lot of benefit in this soft approach

probably it helps that i'm in the process of house training a cat, this little guy does NOT like force, at all, every moment i am violent i am losing his trust, and even, like just before, his big dady, pretty sure he's daddy, came around to visit, the neighbour cat, and i carefully intervened so that these two didn't get too close to each other and mochi had his safe place in my place and the other cat didn't tread on me or my pet

doesn't take force to achieve this, more, just vigilance and readiness

Laeserin 11mo ago

You can have public access or high signal, but rarely both for very long. Groups have the same dynamic as relays. They don't need moderation, so long as they stay small.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

yep, that's what i mean... joining is just opening the client and adding the relay

moderation is minimally required for those edge cases of infiltration behaviour

allowing these groups to cross to multiple relays is important especially for the case of small, affinity groups, whose infrastructure may not be expensive and reliable, in fact, in our case, we may even be running fully customised things on it which adds to the risk of downtime, so building in the ability to add redundancy to it by multiple members of the community running relays and they may not necessarily participate even in the same channels on them overmuch but have other associations with each other that are of a lesser depth, but in this way they back each other up

Laeserin 11mo ago

That isn't really a community, tho. It's more an association or cluster.

Community is about being in communion.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

communities can be closed, but this tends to be an unhealthy situation

Laeserin 11mo ago

You are free to make all communities in your relay public access or WoT, and I am free to not use that feature of your relay because it solves for a problem I am not having.

semisol 11mo ago

NIP-17 is garbage